Foreword.
Any transcription as difficult to hear, in places, as this is going to be open to interpretation. It is completely understandable that others may have different interpretations. We respect that and do not suggest that a different interpretation is more valid than our own. Nor do we dispute that what we have labeled as [inaudible] might be heard by keener ears.
For example, Exaro have quoted a passage “The person was involved and that is why we had to seal the video. And then the department, the superiors took over.”
We have down;
EX CUSTOMS OFFICER
Well, well that person was involved and, er, that’s why we had to seize the video
REPORTER
OK
EX CUSTOMS OFFICER
And then, er, the department superiors took over and that’s the end of my [inaudible]
Minor differences.
Before The Telegraph story HERE and the knowledge that the customs officer was aware of a different incident, it is quite understandable that the journalist might have misinterpreted the customs officer’s answers. However, in the light of that story I think it is quite clear that both parties were at cross purposes.
Our understanding is that Paul Peachy of The Independent did not make a recording of his encounter and this is the only other interview with the customs officer that we know of in February.
For me this exchange near the end is telling, I’ve bolded this in the transcript.
REPORTER
Did you tell him [Paul Peachy] as well that it was him, or had you mentioned
EX CUSTOMS OFFICER
No, I told him exactly what I am telling you, and I can’t say more than what I say already. All information, that’s the place in Dover [inaudible] you’ll be able to tell you what happened.
As I understand it, Paul Peachy walked away thinking he had nothing.
To me it is clear that the customs officer does not believe that he has told the journalist anything more.
For obvious legal reasons redactions have been made.
~
Duration: 18’ 47”
Note: This recording appears – from the audio quality (muffled and affected by clothes rustles) to have been covertly recorded. At no point does the reporter indicate to the EX CUSTOMS OFFICER that he is being recorded.
REPORTER
(Footsteps; ‘beep’ & rustle precede first audible words from reporter)
… from Amsterdam: do you recall ?
EX CUSTOMS OFFICER
Er [inaudible] something I er
[woman’s voice – inaudible]
EX CUSTOMS OFFICER
[inaudible] official er … I am bound by secrets act.
REPORTER
OK
EX CUSTOMS OFFICER
I am not supposed to [inaudible] anything
REPORTER
OK
EX CUSTOMS OFFICER
Er if you [inaudible] about this, you’ll have to go to the right channel. [inaudible] I can’t really …
REPORTER
No, of course, and what I will do is I wouldn’t name you, I wouldn’t put anything to do with your identity …
EX CUSTOMS OFFICER
[inaudible]
REPORTER
It’s just background information as to what the…
EX CUSTOMS OFFICER
What sort of information ?
REPORTER
Well, what was contained on it ? ‘Cos we think that there might have been, erm, pornography involving children that would involving also mainly prominent people, erm, at the time in terms of like MPs, er, that kind of thing
EX CUSTOMS OFFICER
Why don’t you approach the department ?
REPORTER
We have. But it’s not, er which department – the
EX CUSTOMS OFFICER
Customs
REPORTER
Excise. Well, they said that they, erm,
EX CUSTOMS OFFICER
Did you go to right channel, like er, er, department in Dover ? They’re the people who have all the records. I am bound by Secrets Acts not to, not to disclose any sort of information in my career. So I hope you understand what I’m trying to tell you.
REPORTER
Of course. Of course. But would you be able to just sort of let me know, off, completely off the record: the material that was found on that coach involved videos of children, and it also involved children with a prominent MP.
EX CUSTOMS OFFICER
[inaudible]
REPORTER
That MP, his name’s [REDACTED NAME].
EX CUSTOMS OFFICER
Yeah ?
REPORTER
Is that correct ?
EX CUSTOMS OFFICER
Um, hum
REPORTER
[inaudible] Have you spoken to the police ?
EX CUSTOMS OFFICER
Not recent
REPORTER
Did you speak to them at the time ?
EX CUSTOMS OFFICER
Er, hah, it’s a long time ago and as you probably know we get lots of these things and I was involved in quite a few. I can’t be [inaudible] one particular case. All records are kept at Dover: I think you’ve got to go there.
REPORTER
OK. Do you know whereabouts in Dover ?
EX CUSTOMS OFFICER
Yeah, it’s er, I’ll give you the address [inaudible] .. [lengthy pause – no dialogue just atmosphere]
REPORTER
Did you yourself view the, er, any of the footage of [inaudible]: did you have to sit down and watch what was on the videos
EX CUSTOMS OFFICER
Oh yeah, I can’t just seize them just like that. Er, you want to have address ? It’s HM Customs & Excise
REPORTER
Yeah
EX CUSTOMS OFFICER
Priory Court – P-R-I-O-R-Y Court, C-O-U-R-T, Johns Road, Saint Johns Road, Dover, CT 17
REPORTER
What was it, sorry ?
EX CUSTOMS OFFICER
CT – T – 1 – 7, S for Sugar, H
REPORTER
H; OK
From what you remember, though, was there actually abuse taking place by this MP ?
EX CUSTOMS OFFICER
Sorry ?
REPORTER
Was the MP, [REDACTED NAME], er, actually abusing children on the video ?
EX CUSTOMS OFFICER
Well, I can’t disclose anything, sorry
REPORTER
No
EX CUSTOMS OFFICER
I can’t disclose anything
REPORTER
Off the record, you’ve told me that he, it was [REDACTED NAME]
EX CUSTOMS OFFICER
What I can suggest is that you can approach my [inaudible] there and ask for the details. Whatever the [inaudible] you and they’re supposed to tell you. But I am not supposed to tell you anything.
REPORTER
No. Well this is just off the record, it’s for research really
EX CUSTOMS OFFICER
Well, I can only, can’t say
REPORTER
But [REDACTED NAME]
[NB: it is not clear from the recording whether these three words are spoken by the reporter or the EX CUSTOMS OFFICER]
EX CUSTOMS OFFICER
Not everything
REPORTER
But [REDACTED NAME] was involved, was in, on one of the videos ?
EX CUSTOMS OFFICER
I don’t understand, er, [pause] a long time ago. Some detail, whatever, I don’t know. But I think you’re right about this to go to Dover, and go to this place: they should have all my records, all the records of the event.
REPORTER
OK
EX CUSTOMS OFFICER
So, rather than ask me, [inaudible] I might be telling you something or
REPORTER
No, no, what I’ll do is I’ll go and check, whatever you tell me now I’ll go and check the details. Er, this, this points, St Johns Road, HM Customs & Excise, Priory Court, is that an archive system ? Is that the archive ? The archive, the Customs Excise, this particular address here, is that the archive where they have all the information ?
EX CUSTOMS OFFICER
[inaudible] er, our HQ in Dover
REPORTER
OK
EX CUSTOMS OFFICER
As I say, this was long time ago; they might not have all the records at there, they might have forwarded it to London office, you know
REPORTER
Sure
EX CUSTOMS OFFICER
But,er, your best bet is Dover.
REPORTER
But you remember watching the videos, you had to ?
EX CUSTOMS OFFICER
Well, as I say, you can’t just seize things without reason
REPORTER
Was there, was this an intelligence, this was tipped off from the Dutch intelligence ? Er,that tipped of the British police and the British Customs & Excise that this coach had a, did contain, erm, material involving children ?
EX CUSTOMS OFFICER
Sorry, I can’t say anything
REPORTER
Alright, OK
EX CUSTOMS OFFICER
I’m bound by the [brief cross talk – inaudible] all the details will be kept, are kept when [inaudible] they should have all the information
REPORTER
And this, this, the only reason I ask about [REDACTED NAME], it says, under his name here it says [REDACTED NAME], one videocassette entitled [REDACTED NAME]. And it’s come to my attention that it might be, that it involves, so I’m told, it involves the MP [REDACTED NAME]
EX CUSTOMS OFFICER
Well, I say, well I recollect a complete, a complete list. It happened a long time ago and, er, so what [inaudible], so when another case comes along it is passed on to the head of headquarters and they are the people who will [inaudible] all the information. Because it’s something I don’t want to involved
REPORTER
No. Of course. Which is why you passed it on to some, which is why you passed it on to the police at the time in 1982. Erm, but they haven’t spoken to you recently.
EX CUSTOMS OFFICER
Who ?
REPORTER
The police
EX CUSTOMS OFFICER
What for ?
REPORTER
For ? Because, because of who it might contain on the actual videos
EX CUSTOMS OFFICER
A gentleman came yesterday and you are the next one. Prior to this I had no [inaudible] with anybody
REPORTER
Was the, was the gentleman who came yesterday police ? Or a journalist ?
EX CUSTOMS OFFICER
Journalist
REPORTER
Do you know where, was he from The Independent ?
EX CUSTOMS OFFICER
[inaudible] Independent newspaper
REPORTER
Paul, his name was, wasn’t it, Paul Peachey. OK. And what did you say to Paul, did you tell him anything else about what
EX CUSTOMS OFFICER
I said the same thing. And as I say, I’m bound by
REPORTER
Oh, no, no, I completely
EX CUSTOMS OFFICER
I, I can’t really, I can’t [inaudible] this particular case
REPORTER
No, OK, I understand that but, I mean is there any, having come from London I wanted, really wanted to sort of get a few
EX CUSTOMS OFFICER
I understand but I
REPORTER
Look, if you, you, um, remember, can you tell me what you remember about it that you can, so and which I can, I can get checked [inaudible] this place in Dover.
EX CUSTOMS OFFICER
[inaudible]
REPORTER
I was just wondering whether I could make a note of what you remember about this particular case so I can get this checked with Customs & Excise at St John’s Road in Dover
EX CUSTOMS OFFICER
You’ve got enough details there, and if you contact the, er, Dover office where records are kept, they will know to what to tell you. Then, er, you know, you will get an idea what they are after
REPORTER
OK. Is it public record though – will they, er, to provide, ‘cos what I wanted to know, which they might not tell me, which I was hoping I might be able to get a, just a [inaudible]
EX CUSTOMS OFFICER
You’ve got enough, enough [inaudible] there, once you mention my name and the date and the case, you know, they’ll be able to tell you what happened.
REPORTER
OK
EX CUSTOMS OFFICER
And [inaudible] say where to go [inaudible]
REPORTER
Alright, well what they might not be able to tell me is who, what was on the video. Are you able to just sort of let me know if I’m barking up the wrong tree by
EX CUSTOMS OFFICER
Sorry, don’t, don’t try to force me because I can’t
REPORTER
No, no, no, you can’t tell me
EX CUSTOMS OFFICER
No
REPORTER
But I’m not far wrong when I say certain members, certain MPs at the time, were included in those videos ?
EX CUSTOMS OFFICER
[inaudible] because [inaudible] you can
REPORTER
Cabinet
EX CUSTOMS OFFICER
[inaudible]
REPORTER
So it was [REDACTED NAME], wasn’t it [brief cross-talk – inaudible] he was part of the EC at the time
EX CUSTOMS OFFICER
But as I say, I mean, I can’t, I can’t pinpoint everything
REPORTER
No
EX CUSTOMS OFFICER
In reality my memory is failing me as well
REPORTER
No, of course
EX CUSTOMS OFFICER
You know
REPORTER
Do you know, he was never, I don’t think [REDACTED NAME] was ever charged with anything
EX CUSTOMS OFFICER
Because if that case was passed on to our headquarters and then what happened I don’t know.
REPORTER
OK. Erm. And do you know and when you say it was Europe it was the European Commission, wasn’t it, EC ? Um. Do you know what was happening on it, was it, the one that [inaudible] that this member of the cabinet was abusing children or was just on a video ?
EX CUSTOMS OFFICER
I can’t remember now.
REPORTER
Just that you might of, he was on the video
EX CUSTOMS OFFICER
Well, well that person was involved and, er, that’s why we had to seize the video
REPORTER
OK
EX CUSTOMS OFFICER
And then, er, the department superiors took over and that’s the end of my [inaudible]
REPORTER
OK. And you saw him on the video ?
EX CUSTOMS OFFICER
I can’t tell you that
REPORTER
OK. Well [inaudible] we, er, we haven’t gone to [REDACTED NAME] yet, we’re trying to sort of, might be the next port of call. He lives up in [REDACTED LOCATION] now [inaudible]. But you’ve certainly had no calls from the police, Yewtree, you remember Yewtree that was set up after the Jimmy Saville scandal ?
EX CUSTOMS OFFICER
[inaudible]
REPORTER
They haven’t contacted you at all
EX CUSTOMS OFFICER
No, no, no: nothing actually. The last thing was the gentleman came here [inaudible] that’s it.
REPORTER
Before that it was probably what, 80s ? 1982, when you last spoke to the police ?
EX CUSTOMS OFFICER
Er, I haven’t spoken since to anybody
REPORTER
OK. Um.
EX CUSTOMS OFFICER
I mean this is, this was my job and it happened and everything was then sorted out then [inaudible] was closed. [inaudible]
REPORTER
Are you surprised though that [REDACTED NAME], never
EX CUSTOMS OFFICER
Pardon ?
REPORTER
Are you surprised that [REDACTED NAME] never, um, was facing any police investigation ?
EX CUSTOMS OFFICER
Nah
REPORTER
You weren’t surprised. Is that because it was perhaps a cover-up ?
EX CUSTOMS OFFICER
It’s difficult to say
REPORTER
You can’t say because of, er. OK.
Er. Is there any contact number I can get, your phone number ?
EX CUSTOMS OFFICER
My [inaudible] ?
REPORTER
Yeah, it’s er, it was just it, it will only be to check things with you, nothing more
EX CUSTOMS OFFICER
It’s er, [REDACTED LOCATION]
REPORTER
And that’s [REDACTED TELEPHONE CODE], is that right ?
EX CUSTOMS OFFICER
[REDACTED TELEHONE NUMBER]
REPORTER
Yeh.
EX CUSTOMS OFFICER
[REDACTED TELEHONE NUMBER]
REPORTER
[REDACTED TELEHONE NUMBER]. OK
EX CUSTOMS OFFICER
Could you, er, card or something ?
REPORTER
I’ll check. If I haven’t, I’ll leave you with all my contact details. I usually do carry some around with me but I’ve been, but I’ve had a bit of a clean out of the wallet. Er, [inaudible] my own, I’ve got other people’s business cards. But what I’ll do is I’ll write down all my contact details. Erm, do it on this.
[Lengthy pause – no dialogue, atmosphere only]
As I’ve said, everything you’ve told me is off the record. [inaudible] towards [REDACTED NAME], that’s off the record as well
EX CUSTOMS OFFICER
That’s lovely, thank you [inaudible]
REPORTER
No, no, I understand completely. I mean his name’s come up a number of times and we’ve been told that it was his initials [REDACTED NAME] stood for [REDACTED NAME]. Um, but we didn’t know what was on the videos, whether or not it contained any abuse, or whether or not it was simply him, just somewhere in Amsterdam. Was it, was it taken in Amsterdam or was it
EX CUSTOMS OFFICER
I can’t remember that now
REPORTER
No
EX CUSTOMS OFFICER
I, I, you know, as I say [inaudible] long time ago which we get all this [inaudible]
REPORTER
Umhum
EX CUSTOMS OFFICER
So, [REDACTED NAME] or whatever the name was this, er, [inaudible] anything else. At the time. It was so, [inaudible – hurried ?] could be anybody you know ? This is normal thing, the only thing [inaudible] it was a job and that’s all. Never thought that this would like, you know [inaudible]
REPORTER
No. But when you watched the video of him did you instantly recognise [inaudible] ?
EX CUSTOMS OFFICER
I can’t tell you that, I don’t know. I can’t remember offhand now.
REPORTER
When did you find out that it was [REDACTED NAME] ?
EX CUSTOMS OFFICER
You know we [inaudible], you know, I, I don’t think I can go on too much of that
REPORTER
Of course
EX CUSTOMS OFFICER
It’s not fair, really
REPORTER
No, no, no, whatever you tell me is completely off the record, I’m not gonna mention your name or anything at all, it’s all off the record, but as I said , it was told to me that it was [REDACTED NAME]; you’ve seen a video of [REDACTED NAME], on a video containing, contained on that coach. Um. But we’ll do is that I’ll check that with, see if there’s any more details at that address that you gave me in Dover. Is that all the information, you can’t give me any more information ?
EX CUSTOMS OFFICER
No, I can’t honestly; I’m not supposed to give you any. You can understand my position
REPORTER
Yeah, of course, of course. This, er, Paul, who spoke to you yesterday, did he mention [REDACTED NAME]’s name ?
EX CUSTOMS OFFICER
[inaudible]
REPORTER
Did you tell him as well that it was him, or had you mentioned
EX CUSTOMS OFFICER
No, I told him exactly what I am telling you, and I can’t say more than what I say already. All information, that’s the place in Dover [inaudible] you’ll be able to tell you what happened
REPORTER
Yeah. Ok. [inaudible]
[Interview recording ends: no further dialogue – 39 seconds of atmos followed by cough and sniffs & sounds of door being opened or closed]