Category Archives: Uncategorized

IPCC Statement: Five Officers Referred In Relation To Op Midland

Following today’s publication of the independent review by Sir Richard Henriques of the Metropolitan Police Service handling of non-recent sexual offence investigations alleged against persons of public prominence, IPCC Deputy Chair Rachel Cerfontyne said:

“We were advised earlier today that the Metropolitan Police is to refer the conduct of five officers, ranging in rank from sergeant to deputy assistant commissioner, to the IPCC in relation to Operation Midland. We understand the conduct of a deputy assistant commissioner will also be referred to the IPCC regarding a different operation.

“We have assembled an assessment team to analyse relevant documentation to be supplied by the force, and provide me with a recommendation. Once I receive that recommendation, I will decide whether there will be an investigation and, if so, what form that investigation will take. I am aware of the significant public interest in these matters and I will announce that decision once I have made it and all concerned parties have been notified.

“We have not received any complaints from individuals who may feel they were adversely affected by the actions of officers involved in Operation Midland but, as in all cases, were such complaints to be referred to the IPCC they would be given due consideration.”



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anglesea_head_dTWENTY FIVE years after he was first named as a sexual predator Gordon Anglesea has been brought to book.

On Friday a jury of five women and six men branded the retired police superintendent a child abuser.

They did what North Wales Police, the judiciary — and £20 million of public money had failed to do.

They unanimously convicted him of four counts of indecent assault against two boys in the 1980s.

Anglesea is remanded on bail until November 4.

Judge Geraint Walters told him “there can only be one sentence and that will be a prison sentence”.

The six-week trial was a raw, bad-tempered affair.

The jury were unhappy because they were in court for less than a third of the time.

rebecca_logo_04MINUTES AFTER Friday’s verdict Rebeccarevealed the existence of a new allegation against Anglesea — in 1997 he was accused of indecently assaulting a woman. Even though he lied to the police when…

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headline_grid_guiltyGORDON ANGLESEA was today convicted of historic child abuse at Mold Crown Court.

The jury of six men and five woman unanimously found him guilty on four counts of indecent assault.

He was found not guilty of one charge of buggery.

Two men had claimed the retired North Wales Police superintendent abused them when they were teenagers in the 1980s.

The end of the case means Rebecca can reveal dramatic new developments in the case.

In 1997 a woman made an allegation that she had been indecently assaulted by Gordon Anglesea.

The woman — “ an adult acquaintance: of the family” — reported the matter to the North Wales Police.

GORDON ANGLESEA admitted lying about an indecent assault which took place some time in late 1996 or early 1997. The fact that Anglesea lied under caution has been suppressed by the North Wales Police for nearly two decades … .
Photo: Trinity Mirror


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Hillary Clinton Is Obviously Very Ill

Look at Hillary Clinton’s eyes during her speech yesterday.

This is no longer a conspiracy theory and it certainly isn’t pneumonia.

This is not funny.

She obviously has a neurological disorder and should not be running for President of the USA.

If she does not withdraw then there are two possible outcomes.

  1. Trump will win.
  2. She wins and her deceit against the American electorate is revealed after her election and 50% of the US public react.

Neither of those outcomes seem ideal to me.

She needs to withdraw from the race ASAP


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Nick, Daniel Janner, And Henriques


Daniel Janner QC with his father

News yesterday that Daniel Janner QC, son of the late Lord Greville Janner, intends to take out a private prosecution against the Operation Midland witness Nick for perverting the course of justice. [link to Sunday Times story at foot of page]

The Sunday Telegraph revealed that Sir Richard Henriques, who is conducting an internal inquiry into the handling of VIP CSA investigations by the Met which is due to report on October 6th, had written to Lord Janner’s family with a summary of the allegations that Nick had made against Janner.

Sir Richard wrote to the Janner family: “Nick does not describe any specific incident involving Lord Janner. All Nick states is ‘he wasn’t the worst or one of the nice ones’.

“Nick states that he did not know who Lord Janner was at the time and that he never said what his name was.”

The evidence supplied by Sir Richard gives further credence to claims that Nick simply kept adding names of notable dignitaries to his list of alleged abusers, possibly to attract more attention to his claims.

Sunday Telegraph

Let’s get one thing straight from the start; Lord Janner was a paedophile who abused young boys. Following an investigation by Leicestershire Police the CPS originally felt that the evidential stage had been passed but that the public interest stage had not as Lord Janner had dementia. David Perry QC who following the appeal of six victims conducted an independent review and concluded that it was in the public interest that Lord Janner should be charged.

Here is a full list of the charges that were brought against Lord Janner:


1. STATEMENT OF OFFENCE Buggery contrary to section 12(1) Sexual Offences Act 1956 PARTICULARS OF OFFENCE Lord Greville Janner, on a day between 16th August 1987 and 19th August 1987 committed buggery with Complainant 1, a child under the age of 16 years (namely 15 years).

2. STATEMENT OF OFFENCE Buggery contrary to section 12(1) Sexual Offences Act 1956 PARTICULARS OF OFFENCE Lord Greville Janner, between 21st June 1988 and 2nd August 1988 committed buggery with Complainant 1, a male person aged 16 years without his consent.

3. STATEMENT OF OFFENCE Indecent Assault on a Male Person contrary to section 15(1) Sexual Offences Act 1956. PARTICULARS OF OFFENCE Lord Greville Janner on a day between 16th August 1987 and 2nd August 1988 indecently assaulted Complainant 1, a boy aged under 16 years.

4. STATEMENT OF OFFENCE Indecent Assault on a Male Person contrary to section 15(1) Sexual Offences Act 1956. PARTICULARS OF OFFENCE Lord Greville Janner on a day between 21st June 1988 and 2nd August 1988 indecently assaulted Complainant 1, a male aged 16 years.

5. STATEMENT OF OFFENCE Indecent Assault on a Male Person contrary to section 15(1) Sexual Offences Act 1956. PARTICULARS OF OFFENCE Lord Greville Janner on a day between 13th March 1984 and 27th March 1984 indecently assaulted Complainant 2, a boy under the age of 16 years.

6. STATEMENT OF OFFENCE Indecent Assault on a Male Person contrary to section 15(1) Sexual Offences Act 1956. PARTICULARS OF OFFENCE Lord Greville Janner on a day between 27th March 1984 and 1st November 1984 indecently assaulted Complainant 2, a male aged 16 years.

7. STATEMENT OF OFFENCE Indecent Assault on a Male Person contrary to section 15(1) Sexual Offences Act 1956. PARTICULARS OF OFFENCE Lord Greville Janner on a day between 3rd July 1981 and 15th September 1981 indecently assaulted Complainant 3, a boy under the age of 16 years.

8. STATEMENT OF OFFENCE Buggery contrary to section 12(1) Sexual Offences Act 1956 PARTICULARS OF OFFENCE Lord Greville Janner, on a day between 3rd July 1981 and 15th September 1981 committed buggery with Complainant 3, a child under the age of 16 years.

9. STATEMENT OF OFFENCE Indecent Assault on a Male Person contrary to section 15(1) Sexual Offences Act 1956. PARTICULARS OF OFFENCE Lord Greville Janner on a day between the 10th October 1979 and the 7th December 1982 indecently assaulted Complainant 4, a boy under the age of 16 years.

10. STATEMENT OF OFFENCE Buggery contrary to section 12(1) Sexual Offences Act 1956. PARTICULARS OF OFFENCE Lord Greville Janner, on a day between 22nd August 1985 and 20th September 1987 committed buggery with Complainant 5, a child under the age of 16 years.

11. STATEMENT OF OFFENCE Buggery contrary to section 12(1) Sexual Offences Act 1956. PARTICULARS OF OFFENCE Lord Greville Janner, on a day between 22nd August 1985 and 20th September 1987 and on an occasion other than in charge 10 committed buggery with Complainant 5, a child under the age of 16 years.

12. STATEMENT OF OFFENCE Indecent Assault on a Male Person contrary to section 15(1) Sexual Offences Act 1956 PARTICULARS OF OFFENCE Lord Greville Janner on a day between 22nd August 1985 and 20th September 1987 indecently assaulted Complainant 5, a boy under the age of 16 years.

13. STATEMENT OF OFFENCE Indecent Assault on a Male Person contrary to section 15(1) Sexual Offences Act 1956. PARTICULARS OF OFFENCE Lord Greville Janner on a day between 22nd August 1985 and 20th September 1987 indecently assaulted Complainant 5, a boy under the age of 16 years

14. STATEMENT OF OFFENCE Indecent Assault on a Male Person contrary to section 15(1) Sexual Offences Act 1956. PARTICULARS OF OFFENCE Lord Greville Janner on a day between 21st November 1972 and 22nd December 1975 indecently assaulted Complainant 6, a boy under the age of 16 years.

15. STATEMENT OF OFFENCE Indecent Assault on a Male Person contrary to section 15(1) Sexual Offences Act 1956. PARTICULARS OF OFFENCE Lord Greville Janner on a day between 21st November 1972 and 22nd December 1975 indecently assaulted Complainant 6, a boy under the age of 16 years.

16. STATEMENT OF OFFENCE Indecent Assault on a Male Person contrary to section 15(1) Sexual Offences Act 1956. PARTICULARS OF OFFENCE Lord Greville Janner on a day between 21st November 1972 and 22nd December 1975 indecently assaulted Complainant 6, a boy under the age of 16 years.

17. STATEMENT OF OFFENCE Buggery contrary to section 12(1) Sexual Offences Act 1956. PARTICULARS OF OFFENCE Lord Greville Janner, on a day between 21st November 1972 and 22nd December 1975 committed buggery with Complainant 6, a child under the age of 16 years.

18. STATEMENT OF OFFENCE Indecent Assault on a Male Person contrary to section 15(1) Sexual Offences Act 1956. PARTICULARS OF OFFENCE Lord Greville Janner on a day between 1st April 1985 and 1st April 1988 indecently assaulted Complainant 7, a boy under the age of 16 years.

19. STATEMENT OF OFFENCE Indecent Assault on a Male Person contrary to section 15(1) Sexual Offences Act 1956. PARTICULARS OF OFFENCE Lord Greville Janner on a day between 1st April 1985 and 1st April 1988 indecently assaulted Complainant 7, a boy under the age of 16 years.

20. STATEMENT OF OFFENCE Indecent Assault on a Male Person contrary to section 15(1) Sexual Offences Act 1956. PARTICULARS OF OFFENCE Lord Greville Janner on a day between 16th June 1963 and 9th October 1969 indecently assaulted Complainant 8, a boy under the age of 16 years.

21. STATEMENT OF OFFENCE Indecent Assault on a Male Person contrary to section 15(1) Sexual Offences Act 1956. PARTICULARS OF OFFENCE Lord Greville Janner on a day between 10th October 1969 and 31st January 1970 indecently assaulted Complainant 8, a boy under the age of 16 years.

22. STATEMENT OF OFFENCE Buggery contrary to section 12(1) Sexual Offences Act 1956. PARTICULARS OF OFFENCE Lord Greville Janner, on a day between 24th August 1977 and 1st November 1978 committed buggery with Complainant 9.

CPS Blog

The Metropolitan Police passed Nick’s allegations against Lord Janner to Leicestershire Police who declined to include them in the charges set out above.

It seems to me that the specific case against Nick that his allegation against Lord Janner was an attempt to pervert the course of justice is very weak. Given that he didn’t originally name Lord Janner until an Exaro journalist showed him a photograph of Janner, according to Henriques, it appears that Nick could reasonably claim that his recollections had been contaminated and he had not deliberately set out to mislead the police.

That all said, other allegations that Nick made to Operation Midland against Leon Brittan, Harvey Proctor and Lord Bramall, for example, seem to be far stronger cases for perverting the course of justice than Nick’s allegations against Lord Janner. I note that in most of the stories from yesterday Harvey Proctor was quoted which may indicate that if any private prosecution did take place then it would relate to Nick’s Operation Midland allegations more broadly.

It would appear to this blogger that Daniel Janner QC is attempting to clear his father’s name by prosecuting someone who has made false allegations to the Met but whose allegations were not included in the very credible charges brought by Leicestershire Police.

I’ve been pretty blunt about what I think about Nick on The Needle, I’ve no doubt he is a fantasist who has misled the police and now, potentially, his false allegations might end up undermining the very genuine complainants against the late Lord Janner because if this does go to court then those genuine complainants will be forgotten and all everyone will remember are Nick’s false allegations.

So why hasn’t Nick been prosecuted before now ?

The first reason is that Operation Midland was a huge embarrassment to the Metropolitan Police. They’ll want to forget about this as quickly as possible and the last thing they’ll want to do is have the full details of how gullible they were revealed in open court. It’s bad enough that Sir Richard Henriques is going to report but the public won’t get to see the full cringeworthy details of the botched investigation.

The second reason is that if a police prosecution were brought then the CPS, assuming the Evidential Stage is passed, would conclude that it wasn’t in the public interest to prosecute Nick. It should go without saying that anyone desperate enough to claim that Harvey Proctor attempted to cut off his penis with a penknife but was stopped from doing so by Ted Heath has some serious emotional and mental health issues but also the CPS might conclude that other genuine victims of child abuse may be put off from coming forward if such a high profile complainant as Nick were to be prosecuted.

A private prosecution takes this out of the hands of both the Met and the CPS. Generally a private prosecution costs upwards of £100,000 but given that Daniel Janner QC or a colleague in his legal chambers can process the paperwork at ‘mates rates’ the cost shouldn’t be quite so high.

As soon as the application for a private prosecution is processed then the CPS must by law look at the allegation of perverting the course of justice independently and the public interest case is not so overwhelming that the CPS might not conclude that a Crown prosecution should take place.

So, the bottom line is that just applying for a private prosecution ensures that the CPS must look at the evidence and decide if there is enough evidence to prosecute themselves.

What I would point out though is that just because Nick is a fantasist, it doesn’t follow that Lord Greville Janner wasn’t a paedophile because he was.

A man whose claims about a Westminster paedophile ring prompted a £1.8m police investigation could face prosecution for attempting to pervert the course of justice.

The claimant, known only as “Nick”, made a series of lurid allegations about a number of influential figures including the former prime minister Edward Heath, Lord Bramall, the former head of the armed forces, the former home secretary Leon Brittan and the former Tory MP Harvey Proctor.

No evidence was found to back up his claims.

He also alleged that the former Labour MP Greville Janner — later Lord Janner — was part of the ring.

Janner’s family have written to an internal Metropolitan police inquiry demanding that Nick be prosecuted by the Crown Prosecution Service (CPS).

“If the CPS does not take action then I will be consulting our legal team about launching a private prosecution of Nick,” said Daniel Janner QC, the son of the peer, who died in December while facing allegations of sexual assault.

Sunday Times


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Senator Tim Kaine To Be Next US President At 66-1 Is A Fair Bet

Following my recent successes betting on Theresa May as next Prime Minister and Phillip Hammond as next Chancellor, I’ve just place £10 at Ladbrokes on Senator Tim Kaine to be elected President of the USA. [I found even better odds at Coral and I’ve put another £10 on him at 100-1]

Tim who ? Many in the UK might ask.


Senator Tim Kaine is the Democratic Party’s Vice Presidential candidate and in the event that Hilary Clinton withdraws due to poor health, it will be he who will contest the US Presidential elections in November for the Democrats against Republican Donald Trump.

It is important to understand that due to the fact that 13 US states have closed nominations, Bernie Sanders could not be selected as the Democrats candidate. Instead Tim Kaine’s would take over and a new vice presidential candidate would be appointed.

Given Hilary Clinton’s health problems, including today at the 9/11 memorial service in New York HERE, it looks like this outcome has a significantly increased probability of occurring – certainly far better than the 66-1 that I’ve just put £10 on. I’d expect those odds to shorten rapidly to around 10-1 as speculation about Clinton’s ability to continue increases.

If Hilary Clinton were to withdraw then Tim Kaine is a far less divisive figure than Clinton and Trump and in my view has a better than 50% chance of winning the Presidency.

Please remember not to bet more than you can comfortably afford to lose.

Many Republican senators can barely muster a positive word about their own nominee for president. But ask them about the guy running for vice president as a Democrat, Virginia Sen. Tim Kaine, and they positively gush about the prospect of working with him.

“He could be a tremendous asset,” said Sen. Bob Corker (R-Tenn.), chairman of the Senate Foreign Relations Committee, which Kaine serves on. “He understands the issues, he cares about having an outcome and I think he could be very effective with working with people here.”

“I don’t know anybody on the Republican side who has a bad thing to say about him. He doesn’t go out of his way to go after people politically and he’s all about policy,” added Sen. Jeff Flake (R-Ariz.).

For Hillary Clinton to have any prayer of getting things done if she wins, she’ll need to reverse eight toxic, standoff years between the Obama White House and Republican Congress. Kaine could go a long way.

The first-term senator has made a point of getting along with his GOP counterparts: He’s built a rapport with conservative firebrand Ted Cruz, delivered a book on polio to Senate Majority Leader Mitch McConnell after hearing the Kentucky Republican discuss his childhood battles with the disease, and works out in the Senate gym with Sen. Dean Heller (R-Nev.).

For one party to praise the other’s VP nominee in the thick of election season is unusual, to put it mildly.

More at


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The Curious Case Of Dog That Didn’t Bark…



Really ?

Tell me more Mark.


Let’s put aside how it is that disgraced and utterly discredited former Exaro editor Mark Watts came to know that DCI Paul Settle (for it is he) the former Op Fernbridge head was to be interviewed on Monday by the IPCC over allegations that he had  (irony alert) “leaked” information to the the press (all part of the rough and tumble of journalism – right Mark ?)

Mark Watts has helped me identify who the second complainant against DCI Settle was.

In case you’ve not been paying attention, the first complainant was ‘Darren’.



The one thing that ‘Darren’ knows is who put him up to making an allegation against DCI Paul Settle. Though I’m unable to share the details, I know without doubt that Paul Settle didn’t leak to the press the information, and that surety is not based on what anyone has told me – I know!

Given that I know his details were not leaked, I’d suggest that The Telegraph may have discovered Darren’s identity because he attended an event where lots of journalists were and then appeared on BBC News on camera with his real name underneath. Doesn’t that sound more plausible ?

But Darren does know who suggested that DCI Paul Settle was the leaker and encouraged him to make a complaint to the IPCC. Did they write it out for you Darren, did you just have to sign it ? You’ve got them over a barrel.

I think whoever encouraged Darren to make a false complaint against DCI Paul Settle could be in big trouble – Perhaps Mark Watts might explain to Darren what ‘Conspiracy to Pervert the Course of Justice’ is all about ?

So, you see that Darren really does know something important but does he realise ?

I genuinely had no idea who the second complainant against DCI Paul Settle was until Mark Watts started to tweet. (Thanks Mark!)

I had thought it might be Nick from Operation Midland but due to a great deal of research from my team (Thanks team!) I’m now able to reveal that the second complainant against DCI Paul Settle is…

Drum roll maestro!

Chris Fay!

I kid you not.

PS, I hope you all had a great Summer.




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THE REPORT of the Macur Review — an examination of the work of the 1996-99 North Wales Child Abuse Tribunal — is a whitewash.

Lady Justice Macur’s report was finally published on March 17 this year — nearly three and a half years after it was commissioned.

She concludes:

“I have found no reason to undermine the conclusions of the Tribunal in respect of the nature and scale of the abuse.”

She brushes aside evidence submitted by Rebecca — one of the Tribunal’s major critics.

She also rules out the existence of a national paedophile ring:

“Neither is there evidence of the involvement of nationally prominent individuals in the abuse of children in care in North Wales, between 1974 and 1996.”

“Consequently, I do not recommend the establishment of a further public or private inquiry.”

But Lady Justice Macur is also highly critical of the Tribunal.

Her team has done…

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FOR DECADES North Wales Police have been accused of covering up a child abuse scandal.

Critics say the force failed to investigate allegations that residents of care homes were being sexually abused in the 1970s and 1980s.

Britain’s only child abuse inquiry — the 1996 Waterhouse Tribunal — was set up to examine these claims.

The Tribunal gave the force a clean bill of health:

“ … there was no significant omission by the North Wales Police in investigating the complaints of abuse to children in care.”

Rebecca has long argued this conclusion is suspect.

The Tribunal did not consider the testimony of a witness who claimed he reported the most serious abuser in the scandal — John Allen — to police in 1980.

This was 15 years before Allen was gaoled.

In 2012 David Cameron ordered two new inquiries into the scandal.

One was a police investigation, Operation Pallial: the…

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The Islington Survivors Network

A new website, The Islington Survivors Network, is now live and open for contact from anyone who suffered sexual, physical or emotional abuse or neglect within an Islington children’s home, adoptive home or foster home.  A number of volunteers have worked hard to produce this resource and feedback is welcome.    Please click on the image or link below to visit.

Islington survivors

Many children’s homes within the Borough were affected including Beecholme, Colgrain, Conewood Street/Park Place, Dixton, Elwood Street, Gisburne House, Grosvenor House, Harlow, Highbury Crescent, Highbury Grove, 29 Highbury New Park, 80 Highbury New Park, Holmleigh, Hutton Poplars, Mildmay Park, New Park House, Northampton Park, Shephall Manor, Sheringham Road and The Village.

For those unfamiliar with the background to the Islington scandal, we recommend reading Eileen Fairweather’s  expose in the Evening Standard in 1992:

The scandal at the heart of child care Evening Standard 06/10/92

The tragic stories of five victims Evening Standard 07/10/92

Lured into the hot house of corruption Evening Standard 07/10/92

Further press links can be found in The Needle’s CSA database here.










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Harvey Proctor Press Conference Draft Speech


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The Mucker Report

By Derek Mucker


Derek Mucker

‘Ello my mush! I be Derek Mucker and this ‘ere’s The Mucker Report. I been asked to report on whether the North Wales child abuse Inquiry was a cover-up.

I can tell ye that I found no govmint documentation that it were.

I found no govmint documentation that Thomas Kenyon, son of Lord Kenyon, abused young boys in hotels in Wales – No govmint documentation that Sir Peter Morrison abused boys from North Wales care homes – An’ no govmint documentation that Lord McAlpine’s cousin Jimmy abused boys neither !

Imagine that! The govmint didn’t see fit to write any documentation about it nor no documentation about any cover-up!

No documentation means it ain’t proved and if it ain’t proved it didn’t ‘appen.

Which begs the question – how comes I can’t find n0 govmint documentation for the Elmer Fudd tattoo I’s found on my arse?





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My thoughts on Andrew Picard ( Boeckman ) & his father Phillip

shinybluedress's Blog


Imagine – if you can – a tiny girl of 3 being filmed & photographed whilst she is being raped. It’s unimaginable isn’t it? But it happened & it was captured in photos & film.

Now imagine that somewhere in the UK –  in a world far removed from her – an Etonian pupil looking, watching & sharing her trauma with his friends. To feed his fascination/addiction to viewing this detestable crime. Unimaginable too? No. It happened & Andrew got caught.

Now back to the little girl. Not only does she not understand what’s happening to her, she does not even have the language to be able to tell anyone.

And who is she? Where is she? Does she have a caring family? Has anyone rescued her? Are the police investigating? Somehow I doubt it.

Conversely, the Etonian Andrew Picard (or more correctly Boeckman ) not only knew his…

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EU Referendum Debate With Peter Jukes

Since Prime Minister David Cameron returned home from Brussels with the EU deal to be put to the British people in a referendum on the 23rd June, I’ve wanted to write about it here on The Needle. However, I felt that an unchallenged polemic on the subject of why I believe the UK should leave the EU would be inappropriate for the blog and so I decided that it would be far better if I was to invite a respected commentator to debate the issue with me. I’m very grateful to author, screenwriter, playwright, literary critic and blogger, Peter Jukes for agreeing to make the argument for the UK remaining within the EU.

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Peter Jukes

Peter has been a feature writer for both The Independent and the New Statesman, he is now an adviser for the excellent independent platform for online journalism Byline. He is the author of The Fall of the House of Murdoch and more recently Beyond Contempt


Jon – Can we agree from the outset, that the overwhelming majority of those who’ll be voting in the EU referendum on 23rd June later this year will do so because they hold honestly held, sometimes strongly held, opinions, whether they vote for the UK to remain within the EU or to leave?

There is likely to be increasingly intemperate commentary in the country over the coming months and if, on the one hand, those wishing to remain within the EU characterise or caricature those who disagree with them as xenophobes or anti-European, or on the other hand, those who wish to leave the EU paint their opponents as unpatriotic or national self-flagellants who have no faith in Britain’s ability to govern itself, then the important issues that are needed to inform any decision the electorate have to make will be lost in a deluge personal insults.

Peter – Jon. It’s certainly true that political debate rapidly descends into personal attacks these days. Given the variety of different shades of opinion on both sides, it would be cheap and defamatory to call all those who plan to ‘remain’ unpatriotic adherents to a superstate, or those who plan to vote ‘leave’ narrow minded nationalists . That kind of name calling won’t get us anywhere. However, I still suspect that the idea of the nation state, the main determinant of recent history, is somehow at stake in the whole referendum. That doesn’t mean that nationalists are ‘bad’: Indeed, I happen to believe the nation state is still the most viable, accountable and effective form of political organisation we have. So let’s frame it in another way. What kind of internationalism do we want? I suspect that’s what we’re really arguing over: the internationalism of the marketplace versus the internationalism of governance. But do correct me if I’m wrong.

Jon – Governance or Sovereignty tend to be the kind of issues that politicians get frothed up about; most members of the public have a more instinctive understanding of the principles of democracy.  The larger the political entity, the less control individuals have within it. Greater centralisation of power disenfranchises the ordinary citizen. Nation states have evolved and most people accept that the UK’s size offers a fair trade off between democratic accountability and security.

If I were to wish to change anything then I’d be looking to devolve power not centralise it. To answer the question that you posed; the kind of internationalism that I’d like to see is one of peace, security, trade and mutual respect. I feel certain that these can be achieved just as well if the UK were to leave the EU. I just wanted to check, when you talk of “internationalism of the marketplace versus the internationalism of governance”, are you suggesting that the two are in opposition, that we can have either one or the other ?

Peter – I completely agree with you – and critics from both left and right – that the problem of the EU is the ‘instinctive’ understanding that the institutions of Brussels feel remote and unaccountable.

The most powerful and persuasive argument for ‘leave’ is that, across Europe, we are being governed by elites who have little understanding of the travails of most people. Both left and right agree on this. Tony Judt said the same, and so does Daniel Hannan.
But look at the wider picture. Because of the global movement of capital, trade and foreign exchanges, most states have little control over vast swathes of their economies. A corporation like Apple has revenues bigger than the Polish government, and can arbitrage taxes and regulation internationally. At present, I don’t think our forms of governance have begun to catch up with our market places, and I would put the 2008 crash down to that failure of oversight by relatively puny regulatory authorities like the FSA and SEC.
Here’s a more current example. Those to the left of me cite the TTIP international trade agreements, negotiated secretly by the EU, US and others, as the prime reason to vote ‘leave’. But do either of us think that Britain alone will negotiate a better deal?
My key position is really a right wing free market argument. Who is going to create a properly regulated, fair and open market place, and negate that ‘special problem of monopoly’ that Adam Smith warned us of? We’ve seen global convergence provably lead to ‘too big to fail/too big to jail’ monopolies in finance, media and energy. Who is going to counter them given the free flow of capital across borders? Only cross border institutions.
So to answer your last question,I think the internationalism of governance and market is currently in opposition, and we need both to check each other to get the best of both worlds.

Jon – I’m not aware that any agreement on the TTIP international trade negotiations has been reached and so it is impossible to say whether an independent UK could negotiate a “better deal”.  Broadly speaking trade negotiations are impacted by leverage, good will between the two negotiating parties, and compromise. The size of the EU certainly has the advantage of greater leverage but there is undoubtedly plenty of good will in the bilateral relationship between the UK and USA.  As the EU is negotiating on behalf of 28 diverse states it can not be said to be negotiating in Britain’s national interests; in this way the EU position is a compromise and there is every indication that the status of public service like the NHS may be a compromise that the EU may decide to make in the interests of a greater Europe.

I understand the point that you make regarding global movement of capital, trade and foreign exchanges; however, your logic appears to be leading you toward advocating some kind of world government because, given modern communication, the free flow of capital across borders will continue as long as any territory remains independent.
You claim that your ‘key position is really a right wing free market argument’ and ask, “Who is going to create a properly regulated, fair and open market place…?”  The answer is certainly not the EU as long as it continues to put the Eurozone political project above economic transparency . The problems within the Eurozone over the last seven years have not disappeared, the underlying weaknesses still remain, the Eurozone is still economically unstable.  Market crashes are often referred to as ‘corrections’ but no correction has been made because such a correction would have inevitably led to Greece, Spain, and others leaving the Eurozone.
Regardless of what those who advocate remaining within the EU claim, the UK, the largest net contributor to the EU outside of the Eurozone, will continue to pay for it. In 2014 the UK was asked to pay an extra £1.7bn to the EU, while Germany and France received rebates. The UK had to pay more because it had remained outside of the Eurozone; Germany and France received rebates because their economies had suffered due to bailing out Eurozone countries. Despite all claims to the contrary, the UK ended up compensating the EU for the Eurozone crisis.
It gets worse because the deal that David Cameron brought back and has asked the country to ratify, legitimises the use of central EU funds for the purposes of bailing out Eurozone countries.
How can the UK possibly remain within the EU and not be pulled along into ‘ever closer political union’ ?

Peter – On the point of principle. There’s always something gained and something lost in treaty arrangements with other countries whether in defence or trade.  Globalisation requires an increasing numbers of international protocols. This is just governance, not global government. But this does bring with it a problem of accountability beyond the single nation state. As an arrangement – with its council of ministers and elected parliament – the EU should, in principle, give more democratic control of supranational threats and arrangements.

In practice, largely because of the premature adoption of the Euro, it hasn’t always worked out this way. For the record, I always preferred John Major’s suggestion of a ‘hard ecu’ – a common currency but not a single common currency, which gave individuals and businesses the option to adopt over time. But Britain is not in the Eurozone – and gets the benefits of its own currency with access to the world’s biggest single market. What’s not to like? The £1.4 billion current subvention is pretty cheap at the price, compared to the subventions we make to other international funds like the IMF to smooth other market fluctuations.
Is the EU the source of economic crisis since 2008? I don’t think so.
 My personal experience of regular visits to the former Soviet controlled ‘Warsaw pact’ countries over the last two decades (particularly Poland) shows another side. The powerful stabilising effect of the acqus and structural funds in countries which could well have gone down the route of the former Yugoslavia and Ukraine without the civic rights obligatory for EU membership and the rising living standards associated with membership.
Over a hundred people were shot by Yanukovitch’s secret police in Kiev’s Maidan. What were they protesting for? To become part of the economic and civic norms of the EU.  As a ‘soft power’ EU enlargement has done more than NATO in the last 25 years to secure peace and prosperity.
Britain’s game was always to go for enlargement to dilute the Franco-German dominance of the EU – a wider rather than deeper project. Now width has been achieved, Cameron has forestalled the threat of depth by securing an agreement that the ‘ever closer union’ does not apply to the UK.  If an ever closer union is a threat even if we aren’t a part of it, aren’t we better off remaining members to keep diluting the threat? If it’s not, why not have our cake and eat it, with the stability of collective support, access to the single market?
And here’s another twist. In the assertion of the primacy of Parliament and controlling our borders, we may well lose both. If the vote is for ‘leave’ in June, it’s a near certainty that the Scots would demand another independence referendum, and the nationalists would win. The threat of the break of the union is much bigger to me than the speculative (and now exempted)  ‘ever closer union’ of the Maastricht treaty.

Jon –You make some interesting point which I’d like to tackle one at a time.

You write that you don’t think the EU is the source of the economic crisis since 2008, and the adoption of the Euro was premature. I think you’re half right. The Euro’s time was right for a number of northern European countries. However, because the Euro was always a political project rather than an economic project the EU turned a blind eye to the blatant economic misrepresentation which allowed southern European countries to join the Eurozone when they were not ready to. It is fair to say that the EU was not the cause of the 2008 financial crisis, nevertheless because of this the Eurozone was particularly susceptible and the global economic crisis was exacerbated  by the Eurozone’s weakness.
I can see how the people of a country like Poland, that had previously been under totalitarian rule, would benefit from the obligatory human rights that come with membership of the EU but Britain is not Poland and this debate is about Britain’s membership of the EU not Poland’s. I can also see how the standard of living in Poland would have increased but that is hardly surprising given that Poland receives close to three times the money from the EU than it puts in – Britain, on the other hand, is a net contributor receiving close to half back what it puts in.
I don’t particularly want to dwell in too much on a possible future Scottish referendum if the UK votes to leave; however, you have raised it and so I’ll address it with a few points. The first is that I’ve already stated above that I believe in democracy and strengthening it through devolving power and so to my mind it is entirely up to the people of Scotland whether they wish to become independent. I would only point out that if the Scottish voted for independence then it would seem rather foolish to then immediately vote to give it up by joining the EU and that I’d imagine that the EU referendum results would be calculated by region and that if a majority of Scots voted to leave the EU then there would be no raison d’etre for another referendum on Scottish independence. For the record, I hope Scotland remains part of the UK.
I don’t want to belittle the benefits of EU enlargement eastwards; nevertheless, I’m not sure I’d be so bold as to state that it has had a greater impact on security and prosperity over the last 25 years than NATO. NATO and the EU have entirely different functions and I’m fairly certain that Putin is more wary of a Baltic state invoking Article 5  following any invasion or interference than he does EU sanctions. ‘Soft power’ has its limits and it can be argued that Angela Merkel’s ‘soft’ approach to dealing with Vladimir Putin over Ukraine and Syria gave him the confidence to act as he has done.
I don’t see ‘ever closer union’ as a threat to anyone other than the people within the EU. The EU isn’t a belligerent organisation; they are our allies on defence, policing and intelligence issues and I’m confident that that will continue if the UK votes to leave the EU and I’m sure an equitable trade agreement can be negotiated. Perhaps, Norway and the UK can negotiate with the EU and get a better deal for both countries.
Now that really would be the best of both worlds rather than the fudge that David Cameron is presenting to the British people.

Peter –  Ah David Cameron’s fudge. I rather like fudge. When did we become so doctrinaire and ideological (so French!)? It reminds me of the  probably apocryphal tale of a British EU proposal to which the French emissaries replie: “Ah it works fine in practice, but what about in theory?”

 To your last point about the acquis or EU accords. I was careful to say their ‘soft power’ was more effective than NATO, over the last 25 years only. There could be a case for arguing that, once West Berlin had been protected by the air lift, the economic demonstration of much preferable route western consumer society was more important in undermining the Berlin Wall than deterrence. But that’s a stretch. What we can say for sure is that Germany unified and the EU spread eastwards with a unprecedented speed and success no one could have predicted in 1988.
This does affect Britain, in or out. We are not like Norway or Switzerland. We are an outgoing, seafaring nation with  former colonial connections which root our ancestors and dependants in places as far flung as Hong Kong, South Africa, Northern Canada, Tasmania and the Falklands. To deny our outward looking internationalism would be deeply unpatriotic.  I’m afraid the role models offered to us as ‘Brexiters’ really don’t cut the mustard and underestimate our importance to the European project.
The real cause of the 2008 crash was massive global derivatives market which had hedged on US subprime mortgages with under the counter deals which amounted to much more in the shadow banking system than the actual bonds themselves. This was a highly complex situation which it took (and still takes) thousands of people across the world to unravel. The market was way ahead of any regulation or Basel agreements, and its effect more devastating than anything since the last European war. The vulnerability of the banks to a Greek or Spanish default came entirely from this. Argentina and Russia defaulted in 1998 on a much bigger scale and it there were no liquidity problems. The 2008 crash is, to me, an example of malfunctioning markets and evidence of exactly those kind of cross border agreements and regulations embodied by the EU. Even in the case of Greece, Spain and Portugal, I still think the non-EU alternative would have been much worse in terms of economic collapse and an exchange rate war which would have led to tariffs and isolationism.
Which brings me back again to Scottish Independence. Yes, I do think more power should be devolved on many many issues. But on global problems like international banking, or perhaps carbon emissions, we need evolved decision making at the highest levels. Nations are like people in this way. They are never quite Islands, and they form alliances, societies, groups. They do this because collectively they are stronger, and can best serve the interests of the nations, by working together.
So to move the discussion on (if I may) can I ask the Groucho question? If you wouldn’t want to be member of a club, like the EU, which would have you as a member, what is our alternative destiny in terms of alignment? Do we form a Scandi plus club with Norway, Sweden or Iceland? Or a more transatlantic, English speaking alliance such as the ‘Five Eyes’ of security documents –  UK, US, Canada, Australia, New Zealand?

Jon –  Well it is very interesting that you mention the ‘Five Eyes’ security alliance which highlights the importance of a future independent UK as a ally and active partner to the EU on security and policing and undermines the apocalyptic warnings made by the ‘Remain’ campaign. 

That said, you are raising it so that you can present me with two choices when I haven’t even accepted the premise that the UK needs to be in a ‘club’ and so I’ll decline your invitation. I mentioned Norway, who incidentally also have an outgoing and seafaring tradition – just ask the people living on the North East coast of England – because as a country independent of the EU, Norway is already in a situation similar to the one the UK will find itself in following independence and it would make sense for the two countries to negotiate with the EU together to get the best deal for both of our nations.
I don’t disagree with you regarding national alliances and partnerships, and even friendships but I don’t agree with your pessimistic outlook.  On the one hand you highlight the UK’s outgoing tradition, listing in various ways strong allies and partners of the UK around the world but then suggest that if the UK gains its independence it will suddenly find itself adrift, alone, and friendless. That just isn’t going to be the case; the UK will still have a close relationship with the EU, the UK will still be a member of NATO and the Five Eyes, we’ll still be a permanent member of the UN Security Council and the UK will still belong to the Commonwealth.  It may well be that new alliances might evolve but it doesn’t mean that old ones built up over decades will disappear over night.
Given that the City of London is one of the largest financial centres in the world, the UK will have to be part of any broad international attempt at tackling problems in international banking and I’m sure you’ll agree that an independent UK is quite capable of positively engaging on other global issues like climate change.
You also highlight the importance of the UK to the European Project. I don’t underestimate it but I think that some, not all, of those negotiating the UK deal on behalf of the other 27 EU member states have done. It demonstrated the same kind of bureaucracy, pork barrel politics, and Eurovision voting practices that the people of the UK have watched with increasing dismay . It was the worst kind of advert for remaining within the EU and then to watch a desperate British Prime Minister try to put the best gloss on such an insignificant, reluctantly offered, take it or leave it, deal… It’s clear that it isn’t those in the UK that now wish to leave the EU who have underestimated the importance of the UK to the European Project, it is those that were too complacent around the negotiating table.

Peter – Don’t you find it odd that, while complaining about lack of democracy in the EU, people rarely think of the undemocratic arrangements in surveillance, security or indeed the control and maintenance of Trident (utterly reliant on a foreign power)? We accept these constraints on our autonomy without protest. So why the focus on mainly economic arrangements with the continent, which are less existential?

I should add that, though remote and imperfect, the European Parliament is at least some democratic check on the Brussels bureaucracy. Today, while Cameron was praising a new Saudi arms deal, the European Parliament voted to suspend all arms sell to the main source of Wahhabi extremism in the middle east and Africa.  The EU Parliament is probably more in line with public opinion on this issue than our own government. On that basis, why not devolve more democracy down, and make sure the supranational structures have some democratic accountability?
I’m not of the apocalyptic persuasion of project fear when it comes to security, (though I do think the European arrest warrant is probably a plus). I’m actually much more concerned about the economic impact of, effectively, leaving the single market as an inside player.
The City has thrived since the 1980s mainly by importing first American, and then European ownership and personnel. I personally think financial services are too dominant in our economy, but there are very few in that sector who think ‘leave’ will improve London’s central role in equity, bond and forex markets. You just have to look at the decline of the pound to see that.
It’s this globalised role at the centre of the timezones which makes Britain completely different to Norway, with a population the fraction of ours and none of our reliance on foreign capital and migratory talent. After nearly half a century, our trading relationship with the EU has become much more dominant than the Commonwealth, which was historically defined by imperial capture anyway. After half  a century, the world has moved on.  Australia’s main trading partner, for obvious geographic reasons, is now China. Though we very good ties with other economies like India and Japan, they favour us as an entry point into the single market.
Many who would vote leave say there’s no reason we can’t achieve a new deal with the EU to give us untrammelled access to the single market. But that’s a hope, not a certainty. And even if we achieved what Norway did, the subventions to the EU would only increase as a consequence. (Polish infrastructure has been largely rebuilt from the ‘Norwegian Fund’.) Only this time we would have no control over how those funds were spent, unlike we do now through the council of ministers and Strasbourg.
In short, I really don’t fear complete disaster if we leave. But the idea that Britain would be richer and more productive, seems to me to be founded more on hope and a prayer than any cold cost benefit analysis. True, for a moment, we could relish our feeling of freedom. But as happened throughout my childhood, international forces – devaluation, balance of trade payments, etc – would soon remind us how contingent on others our freedom is.
Perhaps, for a moment, I could move on from the dismal science of economics, and talk about other things. I actually love the idea that I can travel with a British/EU passport through Schengen countries unchecked. I like the idea I can move to France, Germany or Croatia and work there without a green card, and use their health services at virtually no cost. I’m proud to British, but I’m also proud to be European too. I was married to an American, and have lived and worked there, but there are various historical and emotional reasons why I feel Brits have more in common with the inhabitants of Warsaw than Boston. You could well counter that the EU does not express that Europhilia, and rather undermines it. But what have I got left of that, in any civic sense, if we leave?
If we didn’t have the EU, wouldn’t we need to invent it? And if so, what would this ideal European arrangement look like?


 Jon –  Surveillance and Trident, far from being ‘undemocratic arrangements’, are under the control of the democratically elected government of the UK. Every five years now, the British people have the opportunity to elect a new government that can change these policies.

I’m in broad agreement with you about the European arrest warrant; however, the Assange case highlights the different interpretations of the term ‘Judicial Authority’ across the EU. In the UK this refers to a judge, in many other EU countries this can refer to a public prosecutor and as a consequence warrants can be issued with a lower evidential threshhold than in the UK. That isn’t to say that UK judges always get it right; the disturbing case of the European arrest warrant issued on the parents of Ashya King stands testament to that. On the whole though, these cases are exceptions rather than the rule and I would expect an independent UK to negotiate similar arrangements with the EU once we’ve voted to leave the EU.
I can see that like me you really enjoy European travel and love experiencing first hand the culture, history, and diversity of Europe; so I want to put your mind at rest – just like any citizen from any independent state from anywhere in the world, just like you can today, you’ll be able to travel freely throughout the Schengen Area once you’ve entered it using your British passport for as long as the Schengen Agreement holds. We need to accept that because of the unilateral decision of the German government to offer unrestricted migration from outside the EU that Schengen is coming under pressure but this is not the fault of the UK or indeed any of the other 26 EU member countries who have to deal with the consequences of of Germany’s generous offer.
I want to seize on your mention of the dominance of the UK financial sector – I agree with the sentiments you expressed, the UK economy is too reliant on it – to look at the thorny issue of EU immigration into the UK.
Over the last half century, the industrial and manufacturing sectors across the developed world have declined and the recent economic trend is toward increasing growth in the service sector. I hope you don’t think I’m deliberately oversimplifying the complexity of the service sector in the UK if I use high street takeaways as a vehicle to make my point but the proliferation of them in towns and cities across the UK means that it is an ideal example that readers can grasp. UK economic growth is increasingly dependent on the growth of the service sector, which means that using our example, it is in part reliant on more high street takeaways and more consumers of high street takeaways but there is a problem, the UK population is stable, increased life expectancy and a higher standards of living has led to lower birth rates to compensate so how can the UK find more consumers of takeaways so that the UK economy can keep on growing? The answer is simple, allow more consumers of takeaways to take up residence in the UK, this will invariably lead to even more takeaways on the high street and, hey presto! we have the illusion of perpetual economic growth.
When 200 UK business leaders write a letter and state that – “Business needs unrestricted access to the European market of 500 million people in order to continue to grow, invest and create jobs” – what they really saying is that UK business needs increasing numbers of consumers for the UK service sector, more takeaways, and to boot they also want a surplus of labour which will drive down wages.
The dangers for the UK of relying on exponential immigration as a means of achieving  the illusion of perpetual economic growth are twofold; firstly it is simply unsustainable and secondly there is a very real danger that UK citizens will become lazy economic Eloi relying on migrant Morlocks. With no economic incentive to improve education in the UK why should we be too surprised if future generations of Britons emerge without the desire to compete for low paid jobs filled by migrant workers?
The real tragedy is that a stable population number caused by increased longevity compensated by lower birth rates, coupled with the technological, information, and communication revolution, might be the first indication that the developed world is entering a new social epoch but if so UK citizens will not feel the benefit until their government cease to cling to the social and economic paradigms of the 20th century and that must include their obsession with economic growth.

Peter –Looks like we’re getting to the heart of the matter over democratic control (without using the word sovereignty). Our treaty obligations with the EU are just as democratically accountable as your example of Trident or Five Eyes security deals. We can elect a government to renegotiate or sever them. The additional thing about the EU is the democratic oversight of an elected parliament.

 Your point about Schengen travel is well made, with this exception. We will no longer enjoy the rights of employment, welfare and residence in the rest of Europe that we currently do. We will just ‘travel’ to Europe as a tourist destination, sample their takeaways: we will no longer have the same rights there. It will be a huge loss to me, practically and emotionally, and not something I would happily give up. Those younger than me (for example my two kids who are in their 20s) take this freedom of movement for granted. They are even more resistant (as polls show) to losing their European Union civic identity
On immigration and reliance on services. I know you used takeaways merely as a metaphor for the service economy, but it’s a very loaded one implying crass consumption of perishable products. We have huge shortages in mainly highly skilled sectors of employment, especially in engineering and healthcare. Where will we get the additional workers? Back to Australian dentists and their famous lucrative ‘antipodean trenches’ of mercury fillings which financed their ranches back in Oz? The EU provides a nearby and highly trained pool of labour for all the bottlenecks in our economy.
It seems to me that many who adhere to Adam Smith principles of the free movement of capital forget the corollary – free movement of labour. I’m not accusing you of this, but many UKIP voters are utterly reliant on the labour and tax revenues of the immigrants they’d seek to prevent. They want the benefit of a care worker or cheap plumber from overseas on an individual basis, but fail to see the collective effect.
It might be worth exploring this for a moment, because it hadn’t really occurred to me that some who oppose the EU are actually opposing the current models of growth. The libertarians I generally talk to oppose regulation, and see Brussels as a brake on growth.
It’s a truth you’re clearly aware of – most economic growth is dependent on population growth. These days, in developed societies, immigration is a major factor.
I for one, don’t think Britain is at all ‘full’ – only 5% of the U.K. Land is urbanised. In my youth most the science fiction books I read were based on the dystopian vision of overpopulation. Meanwhile, inner London lost a million inhabitants, as we all pursued a suburban dream.
Now people are moving back into the once hollowed out inner cities, and over a million have returned to central London. Living densely is both ecologically and economically more sustainable and efficient, compared to the suburban idyll which actually concretes over much more land. Britain feels ‘full’ only because there hasn’t been enough investment in some areas to provide sufficient services.  Much of our start up growth and innovation comes from the hybridisation of ideas and synthesis of different cultures in the metropolitan cities or university towns.
But perhaps, as you indicate in reference to H G Wells, you actually have a more profound problem with that paradigm which I would share – growing inequality. But this seems to be much wider than the EU. The Eloi/Morlock division is becoming as much problem in the US as the UK. Germany escapes it but Europe wide, Greece does not. Absenting us from the EU will not solve this global structural shift of engineering to the developed world, and rising inequality due to the drift of capital accumulation at 6% per annum. Indeed, I would argue it leaves us more vulnerable, without the collective ability to reconstruct as a community of nations, as the EU did so successfully in former communist countries.
Jon –I’m certain that there is nothing more likely to instil fear in the UK populace of the theoretical consequences of leaving the EU than conjuring the spectre of antipodean dentists poisoning their patients with mercury. You should write to No 10, they may be grateful and use the image on a billboard, “Vote to remain”, the accompanying text can say, “…or Tasmanian Jack will be back!”
You mention the democratic oversight of the elected EU parliament. That’s the one that meets half the year in Luxembourg and then moves en masse to Brussels for the other six months with all the inefficiency and waste that it entails? Let’s say that, for arguments sake, every elected UK MEP decided that such profligate waste could no longer be defended. Could those MEPs effect a change? No, of course they couldn’t and nor could a British Prime Minister within the European Council. Not that MEPs would unite and call for such a thing; most members of the public haven’t got a clue what their elected MEPs are up to, they are too distant and remote and as a consequence there is little accountability or public scrutiny.
You’ve quoted Adam Smith a couple of times now; you’ll recall that he also noted that “People of the same trade seldom meet together, even for merriment and diversion, but the conversation ends in conspiracy against the public, or in some contrivance to raise prices.”  All of those MEPs from 28 nations milling around Brussels and Luxembourg – all dependent on the European Parliament for their status and lifestyle – far from home with little accountability and public scrutiny… Is it really any wonder that the European Parliament continued to vote for increases in budget expenditure following the 2008 financial crisis when every national parliament was forced to cut back? Is it really any wonder that they never tackle the appalling waste and profligacy or push for EU reform, reform which may impact on their comfortable existence?
I’m very grateful that you stated that you do not believe that Britain is ‘full’ because it gives me the opportunity to ask you the question that no proponent of continual immigration into the UK is prepared to answer, and that is, just what size of population is full or ideal?
You mentioned that only 5% of the U.K. Land is urbanised. I’m sure you can’t be suggesting that as the UK currently has a population of around 64 million, that a full UK would have a population of 1.28 billion. So, what is the ideal population size of the UK?  100 million? 150 million? 200 million?  It would seem to be a question of uppermost importance, governments must plan ahead and yet nobody seems prepared to provide an answer to that question.
You mention the UK skills shortage in engineering and healthcare and you ask, “Where will we get the additional workers?” The answer is that we educate young British people and we ensure that they can earn a living wage instead of relying on importing cheap labour from abroad. When I see politicians almost boasting about the dependency of the NHS on immigrants, often coming from third world countries, I’m frustrated and ashamed. This is not a criticism of those individuals who come here and work in the NHS, it is just that it is indicative of failures in UK education and our economies over-reliance on cheap overseas labour. The problem is that it is only cheap in the short term, in the medium and long term greater and greater numbers of low paid workers will need to be introduced to sustain such a parasitic economic model.
Yes, I am concerned with inequality and exploitation but I’m more concerned about how it will effect us and what kind of society is likely to evolve as a consequence.

Peter – You noticed I played the Oz Mercury poisoning card!  Dammit.  I hope you’ll forgive me. At least I haven’t once mentioned an Australian born US citizen who owns a large chunk of our media explaining recently that he doesn’t like the EU because they don’t do what he says, while Number 10 does. This speaks a little to my point about the power of a collective of nations against global corporations who can game the rules.

 I hear all your complaints about the European Parliament in practice. But many of those could equally be applied (and often are) to Westminster. The claim that politicians have their noses in the trough and (to mix metaphors) won’t vote to reduce their costs any more than a turkey would vote for Christmas, has a very long and understandable history. It applies to local councils, national assemblies and town halls too. But more democracy and organisation is the answer. Vote them out.
To which you could counter – why should I have to vote for anyone going to Brussels? Scottish nationalists might say the same about sending MPs to the House of Commons. We are, after all, already a multinational state with two different legal systems, and now with various levels of autonomy of democracy. We were for centuries an empire, and devolved power to former colonies. Brits of all people – who helped institute the United Nations and build the federal system of the post war reconstruction of Germany – understand that power is not absolutely gathered in one place. It comes from the people, but most of us have cascading levels of identity. Ethnically I’m a English-Welsh-Armenian mongrel. In terms of my culture I’m devotee of the English language (though only 6% of its speakers are actually English). In terms of my national allegiance I’m a Brit, but I’m also a European. I like political structures which reflect this complex identity. I know others don’t, but there we go.
On the wider aspect of population size I think we’re probably a generation off our peak amount. I don’t know what the numbers are, but I do know that things feel crowded when services are poor, and we’re fighting over jobs, access to transport, housing and education. But Malthus pointed out we were already too full by that measure 200 years ago, with a population barely over 10 million. It’s all about resources, integration, sustainable lives and a future full of potential. Remove all of those, and the most remote desert island becomes an overcrowded nightmare with just two people.
I don’t disagree with you on better training and skills for British citizens. But one of the greatest assets we have in terms of global trade and the creative exchange of scientific and cultural innovation is the population mix we have, with family or social connections all over the globe, and the dialogue of different cultures, insights and information. London is currently the most cosmopolitan city in the world, and its openness to strangers (just like Paris and New York before it) is the upside of migration. Of course, there are many downsides, particularly in the decay of industrial towns of the north. But let us remember that is a result of migration two or three generations ago, in itself a consequence of Britons’ imperial migration to Africa, North America and the Indian subcontinent. If we start getting nostalgic about our past, we should see how isolation has never been our destiny.
On your side, you can point to this and say a Brexit will not change our history or global connections. But on mine, I could point out that leaving the EU will have very little effect on those problems of integration that are often held up as the main reason we need to ‘control our borders’.
I feel like ending – if this is the close of our debate – on a version of an old joke about men and women’s attitude to marriage. Men get married hoping women won’t change, but they do. Women get married hoping men will change, but they don’t.
I feel leave campaigners hope Britain will stop changing if we leave the EU, but it won’t.
Best and thanks for such an informative civilised debate.
Jon – Many thanks Peter, it’s been a pleasure debating the issues with you.


Filed under News, Politics, Uncategorized

We’re Watching & We’re Waiting

The Friday Night Song


Filed under Uncategorized

IPCC Look At Investigation Into Disappearance Of Vishal Mehrotra

Great work by The Needle team members who spent much of yesterday creating a text version of the difficult to read report ‘Inquiry into Suspicious Death of Vishal Mehrotra’.

The original can be found on LBC HERE



Also see 2005 report ‘Operation Mehrotra‘ released under FOI request.

Full Text from the Sussex Police Report; ‘Inquiry into Suspicious Death of VISHAL MEHROTRA’, 1983:

Detective Superintendent G. H. Curd,
Detective Superintendent’s Office,
Police Station,
P019 2AD.
January 1983


1. During the afternoon of Sunday, 21st February 1982 two brothers, XXXXX were pigeon shooting across ground owned by XXXXX on the south side of the A272 west of Rogate.

2. On reaching Allow Copse they entered and started to search through the area to raise pigeons when they came across what appeared to be a human skull and some bones. They left the skull in situ and reported their find by telephone to Midhurst Police Station.

3. Alder Cope at Rogate is a three and a half acre wooded area of marshy ground surrounded by pastureland, and as stated is on the south side of the A.272, The western boundary of Alder Copse is within fifty yards of the Hampshire/Sussex county boundary.

4. Following the report of the finding of the skull PC XXXXX immediately attended Alder Copse followed shortly afterwards by PS XXXXX and PC XXXXX

P 1

5. Subsequently Superintendent XXXXX (Deputy Divisional Commander) and Detective Chief Inspector XXXXX attended Alder Copse and viewed the remains and owing to the lateness of the hour it was decided to tape off the area, guard the scene and await daylight.

6 At 10.30 a.m. on Monday, 22nd February 1982 Detective Inspector XXXXX and Detective Constable XXXXX (SOGO) attended the scene with a CCTV unit. A video recording was made of the area and still photographs were taken by PC XXXXX A visual examination then took place within the area previously taped.

7. At 2 p.m. that day Detective Superintendent XXXXX and officer reporting arrived at the scene with the pathologist, Dr. XXXXX
Dr. XXXXX carried out a search and examined the skull and bones but before disturbing the skull all debris from the area was collected and placed on a body sheet for later examination.

8. Some thirty-five feet away from the skull and towards the north side of the copse a mass of dark hair was found. The visual examination of the area was continued and revealed a lower jaw and some loose teeth on the surface of the marsh some sixteen feet west from the location of the skull. All item, discovered at the scene were photographed in situ and then removed for further examination by Dr. XXXXX

9. An incident room was initially set up at Midhurst Police Station and following information on Tuesday, 23rd February from Dr. XXXXX that he considered that the skull was that of a child of some eight to twelve years of age, and possibly coloured,

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a request was made through Missing Persons Index at New Scotland Yard for details of all persons within the eight to twelve-years age group who had been reported missing during the previous twelve months.

10. On Tuesday, 23rd February 1982 a full-scale search of the wooded and marshy area was mounted, involving officers from Worthing, Littlehampton, Chichester and Bognor Regis; with the use of garden rakes and forks the whole area was searched with the exception of the area of marshy ground which had been previously taped and contained within its boundaries the area in which the skull and other items had been found. The searching crew, working under extremely difficult conditions, due to the boggy nature of the ground, uncovered a variety of items from a leather belt to parts of old plough shears. But in particular certain bones were found, one of which appeared to be a vertebra.

11. Technical Support Unit from headquarters attended the scene and carried out a specific search for metal objects using metal detectors in the area where the skull, jaw and other items had been found. This search proved negative.

12. On the following day, 24th February 1982, the same comprehensive search of the remainder of the wood was concluded. No further items of interest were discovered.

13. During the activity of the search party Detective Inspector XXXXX and Detective Constable XXXXX had been con¬centrating on the area around the skull which was of an extremely boggy nature. Despite this a hand search by feel alone revealed some teeth and small bones which were later identified as finger bones.

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14. An area of boggy soil approximately six feet long by four foot wide where the body might have boon lying, as indicated by the position of the skull was carefully dug over to a depth where matted roots intervened. The soil and debris were placed in plastic dustbins and later washed and sieved in order to ensure that no items escaped the search. A further five small bones and two finger nails were discovered within this debris.

15. From the mini incident room setup at Midhurst circulations were made nationally giving details of the findings at Rogate. Also enquiries were commenced in respect of a number of outstanding missing children of the requisite age.

16. Arrangements were also made for XXXXX Odontologist, together with Dr. XXXXX pathologist to make up a dental chart from the skull and lower jaw bone found at the scene.

17. As a direct result of those enquiries it was learnt late on Monday, 1st March 1982 that in all probability the bones were these of Vishal MEHROTRA, a boy missing from the Putney area of London since 29th July 1981, the day of the Royal Wedding.

18. In view of this possible identification the incident room was moved from Midhurst to Chichester and set up with a full staff. Later the same day the identification was confirmed, subject to skull-X-rays by Dr XXXXX and immediate liaison was made with Detective Superintendent XXXXX of the Metropolitan Police Putney, in order that a meeting could be arranged at Chichester the following day.

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19. At the meeting at Chichester on 2nd March 1982 it was agreed that although two incident rooms would operate, i.e. one at Putney and one at Chichester, the enquiry itself would be carried out by the Sussex. Police as it was assumed at that stage that it could not be proved where the death of Vishal MEHROTRA had actually occurred.

Metropolitan Enquiries
20. Detective Superintendent XXXXX (Putney) -was able to supply to the meeting at Chichester a draft report compiled by officers at Putney relating to the enquiries made by them into the disappearance of Vishal MEHROTRA.

21. Paragraphs 1 to 19 of that report deal comprehensively with the family background and paragraphs 20 to 56 then continue with the circumstances surrounding the disappearance and the enquiries which then ensued.

Press and Media
22. On Wednesday, 3rd March 1982 a full press conference was held at Chichester Police Station where Detective Superintendent XXXXX gave details of the disappearance of Vishal MEHROTRA and the enquiries made to date by the Metropolitan Police. Also details were given to the press of the location of the find at Rogate with the request for full publicity on the matter in order to attract any witnesses who may have been in or near Alder Copse at the relevant time.

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23. Subsequently signs were prepared and erected on the A272 both east and west of the layby opposite Alder Copse requesting any persons who had used that route during the relevant time to call at an incident caravan which was in situ in the layby.

24. During the following days posters were prepared by PRO and were distributed by officers from the Traffic Division to garages, public houses, cafes, restaurants and where small villages were concerned to the main stores, throughout the route of the A3 from Petersfield northwards to the Metropolitan boundary.

25. Later this was extended to cover the A272 from Petersfield to the A272 and northwards on the A24 to the Metropolitan boundary once again. A quantity of the posters was forwarded to the Metropolitan Police who completed the route from their southern boundary to Putney.

Family Background of Vishal MEHROTRA
26. As stated, the Metropolitan Police report deals in detail with the family of the missing boy. Therefore it is only necessary to say that Vishal lived with his father, Vishamber Khemchand MEHROTRA, his sister, Mamta MEHROTRA, and a nanny, Joannita CARVALHO, at 14 Holmbush Road, Putney.

27. Vishal’s mother, Aruna MEHROTRA, nee VASHISTH, had separated from the boy’s father and since 1976 had resided in India currently managing a jewellery business in Delhi. Mr. MEHROTRA is a qualified solicitor employed by Stocken & Lambert of 23-28 Fleet Street, WC1.

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28. XXXXX describes the character and personality of Vishal MEHROTRA. A brief summary of this is that they discovered that Vishal was a highly intelligent boy having an open, friendly personality but failed to form any close friendships. The officer enquiring into the background of the family found that Vishal led a very regulated life and seldom strayed outside the close family environment. However, during the school term he travelled unaccompanied to and from school by train from East Putney station.

Circumstances Surrounding the Disappearance of Vishal
29. On Royal Wedding Day, 29th July 1981, Vishal with his sister, father and nanny travelled to London by train and then went to Fleet Street in order that they should watch the Royal procession from the second floor window of the office where Mr. MEHROTRA is employed. They stayed there until 12.30 p.m. and then left to catch a train home. They boarded a train at Temple Station travelling to East Putney via Earls Court arriving et East Putney at 1.40 p.m. Mr. MEHROTRA then left the children with the nanny and returned home as he was feeling tired. Before he left he gave the children 20p each to buy sweets. The nanny, Miss CARVALHO, took the children into a newsagents in Upper Richmond Road where they remained for about twenty minutes. As the children had complained earlier of sore throats the nanny decided to walk to Putney High Street to buy some cough medicine for them. At this stage Vishal said that he did not want to go as he felt tired and wanted to go home.

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The nanny agreed to let him go on his own and saw hlm safely across the main road at the pedestrian crossing outside the shop. She then went with Mamta to Putney High Street before returning home at about 3 p.m. On her arrival Mr. MEHROTRA was asleep on his bed but there was no trace of Vishal. Both the nanny and Mamta decided to have a nap and both slept until around 4.30 p.m. At that time the nanny heard the television in Mr. MEHROTRA’s bedroom being used and she went to see him, explaining what had happened earlier in relation to Vishal. It was then thought by both that he, Vishal, had arrived home and subsequently gone cut to play. Enquiries in the area were then made by the nanny and Mr. MEHROTRA and at 7 p.m, that evening the boy was reported missing to the police at Putney.

30. Paragraphs 22 to 56 of the Metropolitan Police report then detail the extensive investigation which followed the report of the missing boy. This includes full details of the assistance given by the media in this matter and as a result a number of persons reported possible sightings of Vishal. Each of the sightings were carefully investigated. XXXXX

Search of Alder Copse and Surrounding Area
31. Following a meeting with Water Board officials at Alder Copse it was decided it shovel the virtually liquid mud into bins and transport them across the adjacent field to a spot near the roadside where empty bins fitted with sieves would be situated. The mud would be placed into the sieves in small quantities and water washed through it until the slurry had disappeared and only

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vegetation remained for close scrutiny. The water to be obtained from a bowser situated on the roadside and fitted with a lengthy hose. Plastic dustbins and watering cans were obtained from the Council and sieves were obtained locally.

32. On Wednesday, 3rd March 1982 the operation commenced on a limited scale at first as officers were initially employed on a search of the roadside verges and field perimeter. Two Water Board workers operating a small pump, were busily employed at the heart of the mud clearance together with Scenes of Crime officers and the laborious took began.

33. Thursday, 4th March 19P, was the first full day of XXXXX and the careful sieving yielded three rib hones, two small bones (possibly finger), and a fingernail. It became apparent that although effective, this form of searching was going to be a lengthy operation and the hire of plant machinery was considered to speed up the procedure. A plant machinery expert was called to the site and determined that the nature of the ground was such as to make that kind of excavation impracticable. Nevertheless the sieving method obviously had to be speeded up while weather conditions remained reasonably favourable. Heavy rain and cold would be extremely detrimental to the search.

34. A Dumper was hired for easier transportation of the loaded bins across the field and more bins and sieves were obtained and on Friday 5th March 1982 the number of sieves being worked was stepped up to five — with two men to each. Two other men were detached to the fringe of the copse to dig out animal holes.

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The sieving on this day produced more fingernails, a small bone and a vertebra.
35. On Saturday, 6th March 1982 the number of operative sieves was increased to six and although the total yield was only one small bone and two teeth (possibly animal), spirits remained high despite the fact that the entire time the searchers were working in a fixed spot, running their hands through black slurry continuously washed by cold water.

36. Sunday, 7th March 1982 was a rest day, but on Monday, 8th March 1982 a further twelve operatives were back at the sieves in addition to the regulars in ‘The Bog’, i.e. the Water Board workers and the Scenes of Crime staff. By this time the area being lifted was moving away from the central point and towards the spot at which the lower jaw had been found – some 16’ 6″ west of the skull. It became apparent that as the dig went further out, the finds dwindled away. In fact nothing came to light on this day.

37. On Tuesday 9th March 1982 the dig went in the opposite direction towards the position of the scalp and hair but again the search proved fruitless. During the day officer reporting and Detective Inspector XXXXX together with the local gamekeeper looked at fox earths in the vicinity considering the possibility that bones had been carried thorn by the inhabitant. It was decided to launch an attack on a particularly large earth across a neighbouring field some half mile distant and on Wednesday, 10th March 1982 a team of twelve, supervised by a Scenes of Crime officer, carefully dug out the earth for some considerable way and raked and sifted the sandy

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soil as it was removed. At the end of the day, however, the only achievement had been to render a few foxes homeless. No bones were uncovered save for a couple of small birds heads.

38. While the fox earths were under siege, the main team was completing its search of the defined area in the bog with no further success and this being the third successive blank day and with the weather gradually worsening, it was decided to terminate the search. On Thursday, 11th March 1982 only the Scenes of Crime officers and the Water Board workers returned to the area to clear up, return equipment and secure the site.

39. Excluding the Sunday rest day, the concentrated search of seven days had yielded only small remains of the upper parts of the body, nothing of the lower extremities at all.

40. During the sieving procedure the water bowser was refilled three times and approximately 8000 gallons of water found its way via a culvert back into the copse.

41. All the items found were forwarded to Dr XXXXX the pathologist.

Quest for Users of Alder Copse Area
42. Early in the enquiry it was decided to ascertain details of all persons who used the vicinity of Alder Copse and this included the users of the layby which is directly opposite the copse on the north side of the A272. To assist in this an Incident post in the form of a caravan was set up in the layby and was manned from 8 a.m. to 8 p.m. daily. All persons calling at the caravan were

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questioned regarding any sightings of vehicles or persons in the area of Alder Copse, particularly over the period of the Royal Wedding, and all details were passed to the incident room at Chichester for the necessary actions to be made out. Many lines of enquiry were discovered by this means and these will be dealt in detail laterin this report under a heading of Sightings.

43. Normally, based on the layby was a tea caravan and this was used primarily by long-distance lorry drivers. The owner of this business XXXXX was contacted and made two statements which detailed persons who she recalled as using the layby.

44. The necessary actions were instigated and all persons described by XXXXX in her first statement were traced but were unable to assist. In the second statement XXXXX spoke of two persons who called at her tea caravan and who were members of a Pigeon Racing Club.

45. It was ascertained that the Alder Copse area is a popular location with pigeon racing enthusiasts for the release of birds on training flights. Having been made aware of these facts, it was, of course, essential to trace any such enthusiasts who may have visited the area during the relevant period, July/August 1981; and who may have been able to assist with any information regarding their visits to the scene in question.

46. Furthermore, a number of unattended vehicles had been seen in the Alder Copse area and it was felt that some of these could be eliminated from the enquiry as being the vehicles used by pigeon racing enthusiasts.

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In an attempt to inform these persons of our enquiries a press advertisement appealing for assistance was placed in the two following magazines: ‘The Racing Pigeon’ 14th May 1982 edition, and the ‘British Racing World’ 9th July 1982 edition, these being the national magazines for the racing pigeon fraternity,
Unfortunately there was a very poor response to these appeals, therefore the area secretaries of both the London and South of England regions of the National Racing Pigeon Association were contacted and requested to supply details of every club and club secretary in their respective catchment areas, which incorporated the following counties Kent, Sussex, Hampshire, Surrey, Berkshire, Middlesex, Hertfordshire, Buckinghamshire, Essex and the Greater London area.

48. These details were duly supplied to this incident room and a proforma was drawn up for use by the investigating team and officers of other Police forces requesting enquires to be made of the Pigeon Racing Club secretaries to supply the following details; Name, address and description of each member, the make/model and colour of the vehicle the member was using during July/August 1981 and whether or not that member had ever visited the Alder Copse area on the A272 road during that period in question to release birds.

49. As can be seen from the proforma, the details of two men who were known to have visited the area releasing birds frequently throughout July/August 1981 were given, in an attempt to identify them as it was felt that they could well be of particular assistance to the enquiry having made numerous visits to the scene during the relevant time.

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50. In all, some 465 clubs were contacted incorporating in excess of 18000 members. Response to this line of enquiry has been very good and each member who visited the scene during July/August 1911 has been interviewed regarding his observations at that time. However, this line of enquiry is as yet incomplete but continuing and to date the two men described in the proforma have not been positively identified. Although there have been some possible eliminations of motor vehicles from this line of enquiry, no positive elimination has been possible.

51. It was decided to contact the Automobile Association and the Royal Automobile Club to ascertain whether any of their patrols attended breakdowns between 6 p.m. and 6 a.m. on the night of 29th/30th duly 1981 in an area on the A272/A3 roads in the Petersfield/Rogate areas.

52. The AA were contacted by DC XXXXX and photocopies of all breakdown calls were requested and, at that stage there appeared no problem: The RAC were also contacted by DC XXXXX and agreed to supply the information.

53. Mr. XXXXX the regional manager of the Road Services Department of the AA based at Famum House, 52 London Road, Twickenham, contacted the incident room later and stated that it was not possible to supply the information as previously requested but suggested that we contact the various patrolmen to see if they could assist. He supplied a list of names and addresses. Each of those officers have now been interviewed but none of them could supply any useful information.


54. The RAC supplied a complete list of all breakdowns which occurred during the relevant period but on checking none of them was of any use in this enquiry.

55. The reason these enquiries were initiated was to find out whether any vehicles fitting the description of the ones seen at or by Alder Copse during the relevant times could be traced and hopefully eliminated. Unfortunately this has taken us no further in identifying these vehicles.

House to House Enquiries
56. Teams of officers carried out house to house enquiries along the A272 from the junction of the A3 at Sheet eastwards to Rogate. All houses in that village were then visited and additionally the neighbouring village of Trotton. A total of 313 houses were visited but no useful information was obtained.

Local Farmers & Farm Workers
57. The house to house enquiries virtually included all farmers and farm workers but this was made a separate action to ensure that casual workers were also traced and interviewed. Contact was also made with local ‘shoots’ but it was found that the Alder Copse area had not been the subject of an organised shoot during the months from July 1981 to March 1982.

The Witness XXXXX
58. Mr. XXXXX who resides in Petersfield, Hampshire is employed as an artificial insemination technician XXXXX

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Part of his duties necessitate him working in the Hampshire and West Sussex areas, visiting various farms. He frequently uses the A272 Petersfield to Midhurst road and has a considerable knowledge of the Rogate area including Alder Copse and the layby situated opposite.

59. At 1.30 p.m. on Monday, 15th March 1982 Mr. xxxxxxx called at the incident caravan which was parked in the layby opposite Alder Copse. He spoke to PC xxxxxx concerning the sighting of a vehicle in the layby on Sunday, 2nd August 1981 and the activities of two men in the fields opposite the layby on the morning of Monday, 3rd August 1981. This information was then passed to the incident room at Chlchester.

60. On 27th March 1982 Mr xxxxx was interviewed by xxxxx and a statement was subsequently obtained.

61. Mr. xxxxx made reference in his statement to the effect that during the morning of Sunday, 2nd August 1981 he saw a lime green Austin Maxi parked in the layby opposite Alder Copse. The occupant of the vehicle was a man of about 55 years of age who on the face of it appeared to be just relaxing in his car. There was nothing really suspicious about this vehicle.

62. He went on to say that the following day, Monday, 3rd August 1981, he was driving his motor vehicle along the A272 towards Petersfield and as he approached the same layby opposite Alder Copse he saw two male persons on the grass verge and near to the fence at the western end of the embankment which adjoins the two fields in which Alder Copse lies. The time would have been about 8.45 a.m.


63. He recalled at that time that one of the two men was holding the fence with one hand as if he was about to climb over the fence from the roadside verge into the field. As he drove past, this man stood and watched him.

64. Mr. XXXXX described this man as about 30 years of age, 6′ tall, medium build, dark skinned, possibly of Middle-Eastern origin. He had dark straight hair, closely cut to his head, bushy eyebrows and a Mexican-style droopy moustache that went down the sides of his mouth level with the bottom of his lower lip. He wore glasses with heavy thick black or brown frames, the arms of the glasses which go back the ears were unusually thick. He stated that the man was dressed, in a white shirt which had red lines running both vertically and horizontally across it forming inch squares. He was also wearing blue cord trousers or Jeans and that the man wore a gold chain with a medallion or ingot around his neck. He could also recall that the man was wearing a very heavy gold ring, possibly a sovereign-type ring.

65. He could not describe in much detail the second man who he states was crouched over with his back towards him. A comprehensive description of both men is attached to this statement.

66. As a result of this statement from Mr. XXXXX a photofit picture was obtained XXXXX.

67. Mr. XXXXX was not entirely happy with the photofit picture and subsequently drew his own artists impression of the Asian-type man standing at the fence near to Alder Copse.

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68. In view of the most comprehensive statement made by Mr xxxxx and bearing in mind the intricate details he could give regarding one of these witnesses, enquiries were made with the managing director of the firm he works for in order that we could get some form of character reference to support one way or the other the validity of his statement. His employer informed us that he was an excellent worker, very articulate and a man who has a memory which cannot be touched by any other of his staff.

69. As a result of this information DC xxxxx interviewed Mr xxxxx again on 25th March 1982. Mr xxxxx then handed to the officer his own artists impression of the man standing by the field together with the man crouching down on the other side of the fence. This artists’ impression is attached to the same appendix. To explain more specifically the first two artists impressions made by Mr. XXXXX relate to (a) a full description of the man seen by the fence which he felt was a better likeness than the actual Police photofit assembly, and (b) his impression of the overall picture in respect of the man standing by the fence and the European man who was crouched beside this particular fence.

70. During this interview with Mr xxxxx stated to the officers that he had given this matter some considerable thought and had since recalled that when he passed Alder Copse and saw the two men by the field he also saw parked on the grass verge on the south side of the road opposite the layby and adjacent to the western entrance to the fields in which Alder Copse is situated a black Lancia HPE motor car. The vehicle was facing towards

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Petersfield and he recalled seeing a male person standing a few feet in front of the vehicle. He described this person as about 50 years of age, 5′ 6” tall and in his opinion was of Asian origin.

71. He then went on to describe this person at length which can be seen in his statement.

72. He described the Lancia car as very clean and in good condition, it had been well polished and shone brightly in the early morning sun. He went on to say that he was absolutely certain that it was an ‘S’ registration car.

73. In view of this additional information from the witness, consideration was than given as to whether or not Mr xxxxx would remember more of the incident of Monday, 3rd August 1981 if subjected to hypnosis. This was approved and at 7.15 p.m. on Monday, 19th April 1982 Mr xxxxx attended Dr xxxxxxx surgery at xxxxxxxxxxx. During the course of hypnosis Mr xxxxxx recalled even further descriptions of both men standing by the fence at the north-east corner of the field near to Alder Copse and also elaborated on the description of the man and the vehicle (the black Lancia motor car) which was positioned at the north-east end of the field near to Alder Copse.

74. Two very interesting factors emerged whist XXXXX was subjected to hypnosis. They are as follows:
With reference to the two men seen standing by the fence at the north-west end of the field he then recalled that they were in possession of a hessian-type sack about four to five foot long which was apparently heavy. Both men were swinging the sack in

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a pendulum-type fashion in order that they could swing it high enough and to drop it over the other side of the fence. Both men then jumped over the fence to the south side.

75. Mr xxxxxx then went on to describe to Dr xxxxxxx further details in respect of the Lancia car. Mr xxxxxx was adamant that it was black and was a Lancia 2000. He recalls that a windscreen wiper was affixed to the rear of the vehicle, which was shiny black and the silver was polished.

76. With regard to the registration number of the vehicle he felt that it was an ‘S’ suffix with numbers which included 5, 6 and 4. He could not see the complete index number as there was a plastic sack obstructing his view.

77. The other interesting factor that emerged from the hypnosis was that Mr xxxxxxxx not only recalled seeing the two men by the fence at the north, eastern part of the field, and the man standing by the Lancia car at the north-west end of the field, but also a fourth man walking across the field towards the copse having obviously walked from the direction of the black Lancia car. He could only describe this fourth man as coloured, possibly a Pakistani, with black hair which was combed back, broad build, about 6′ tall. He believes that this fourth man walking across
the field was wearing a pink shirt with the sleeves rolled up and appeared to be carrying a plastic bag in front of him. He believes that the plastic bag was about 3′ long and similar to the plastic bag which was obstructing the rear number plate of the black Lancia motor car.

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78. As a result of this further information from Mr xxxxx under hypnosis, an additional statement was obtained from him by DC xxxxxxxx on 20th April 1982. When the officer spoke to Mr xxxxxx produced to DC xxxxxxx an artists’ impression of the man standing by the Lancia car and the fourth man walking across the field as he recalled it looking out of the rear of his vehicle when travelling past towards Petersfield. xxxxxxx xxxxxxx Mr. xxxxxxx stated that this picture was from memory not as a result of his interview under hypnosis.

79. xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx another artists impression which Mr xxxxx drew when he revisited the scene after being subjected to hypnosis.

Lancia Enquiry
80. As a result of the additional information having been educed from Mr xxxxx under hypnosis, enquiries were then made with PNC Unit at Hendon to obtain the registered owners of all black Lancia cars with the view of establishing the identities of the four men seen in the fields adjacent to Alder Copse. The computer print-out amounted to 1872 black Lancia vehicles. A proforma and covering letter with regard to enquiries to be made in respect of the owners of these particular vehicles were obtained and distributed to many forces in the country. XXXX

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81. It soon came to light that in many cases the very dark coloured Lancia motor cars, i.e. brown, dark blue, green and the like, could very easily be mistaken for black. Therefore details were obtained from the PNC Unit at Hendon in respect of all very dark Lancia motor cars and subsequently 9103 such vehicles were forwarded to the incident room and each was made subject of letter and proforma to various forces in the country.

82. On 25th August’ 1982 Mr xxxxx was interviewed again to see if he could recall any further details in respect of the four men and in particular to the black Lancia motor car. This statement does not really take us any further other than Mr xxxxx being adamant that it was a Lancia 2000 HPE, He distinctly remembers looking at the Lancia nameplate on the rear tailgate of the vehicle and seeing the slanted vent at the rear of the offside rear window. This, for our purposes, eliminates other types of Lancia vehicles. Mr. XXXXX went on to say that he was of the opinion that an Asian type woman of about 30 to 40 years of age was seated in the rear of the Lancia car and was probably donned in a pale green satin or silk headscarf or sari.

83. One cannot really place a lot of credence on this additional information in view of the time lapse and the number of statements already obtained from Mr xxxxx. However, this particular information in respect of the woman seated in the car may have some connection in respect of another witness, a Mr xxxxxx, which will be mentioned later on in this report.

84. All 9103 proformas have now been circulated within this country and to date we have received approximately 80% of the replies.

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Sightings of Asian Boys.

85. Miss. XXXX is employed as a cashier at the XXXX ten miles north of Petersfield. Her main duties are the supervision of the self-service patrol pumps and to operate the consul in the pay office.

86. She recalls that on the Royal Wedding Day, Wednesday, 29th July 1981, she commenced duty at 4 p.m. and between 5 and 6 p.m. that evening saw a large dark coloured saloon motor car pull onto the the forecourt for petrol. She is not certain of the make of the vehicle but feels it was probably a Datsun or Mazda, possibly dark maroon in colour and in a good clean condition.

87. The driver of the vehicle was an Asian man, probably Indian or Pakistani, of about 40 years of age, 5’ 9″ tall, stocky build with a rather large stomach. He was wearing a bright pink shirt with short sleeves, the shirt being open to half way down his chest. He was wearing a gold chain around his neck with a large gold medallion attached to the chain.

88. Miss. XXX is quite satisfied that the front passenger was also of Indian or Pakistani origin, about 40 years of age, 5′ 9″ tall, stocky build and he too had a rather large stomach. One thing she did recall in respect of the front passenger was that the the white part of his eyes had a yellow tint to them. She was of the opinion that he was wearing a navy blue shirt with short sleeves and thought the shirt possibly had white trimming. During an interview Miss. XXXX said that one of these two men wore a very

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large gold ring which was a round shape and stood out, very proud on his hand.

89. Sitting in the rear of this vehicle and immediately behind the driver was another Asian youth who, she states, was aged about 18 years. She described him as about 6′ tall and of very lean build. She seemed to recall that he was bare-chested and that he was probably wearing blue denim jeans.

90. Sitting next to this 18 year old youth was another Indian or Pakistani boy who Miss XXXXX describes as about 10 years of age and some 4′ tall. He, like the other three passengers, had very dark hair and she believed he was wearing a pale coloured T-shirt with short sleeves. She got the impression that the T-shirt was possibly striped horizontally and may have had a collar but she was not too sure of that fact.

91. The driver and front passenger got out of the vehicle and the passenger operated the pump to fill the car with petrol. The driver made his way to the kiosk and held a conversation with Miss XXXXX in respect of the Royal Wedding which Miss XXXXX was viewing on a portable television in the kiosk. She was of the opinion that the driver had probably lived in England all his life as he had no sign of a foreign accent.

92. Once the front passenger of the vehicle had filled the car’s tank with petrol, he went to the kiosk and asked Miss XXXXX the location of toilets. The 18 year old youth and the 10-year old boy then alighted from the car and made their way to the

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93. According to Miss XXXX the 10-year old boy did not seem to be at all distressed and walked quite happily in front of the 18-year old youth to the toilets which were nearby. The front passenger went into the kiosk and purchased items of refreshment and the driver paid for the petrol. By this time the 18-year old youth and the 10-year old boy had returned to the car from the toilets.

94. The car was then driven away travelling south on the A3 towards Petersfield. Miss XXXX recalled that either the driver, or the front passenger, also wore a gold-coloured wristwatch with a square or oblong face.

95. The information from Miss XXXX was passed to the incident room at Chichester together with a statement from her. An interesting fact then emerged when one compared the statements made by Mr. XXXX on 22nd and 25th March 1982 and that of Miss XXXX on 30th March 1982.

96. Miss XXXX states that the vehicle which called at her garage on the day of the Royal Wedding was probably foreign, fairly new and very dark in colour. Mr XXXX states that the vehicle he saw at Alder Copse some five days later on Monday, 2nd August 1981 was a Lancia motor car and he was adamant that it was black or at least very dark in colour.

97. Another interesting fact was the description given by Miss XXXX of the driver or indeed the front passenger of the vehicle that called at her garage on 29th July 1981. She was of the opinion that the driver was about 40 years of age, 5’ 9″, stocky

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build with a large stomach. She recalled that he was wearing a gold necklace with large gold medallion attached, and that either the driver or the passenger was wearing a gold wristwatch. When one compares this description and that of Mr XXXX’s description of the man standing by the fence it could very easily be assumed that both described men may well be one and the same person. The description of the other persons seen by both witnesses, Mr XXXX and Miss XXXX do not appear to marry up; however, it cannot be completely ruled out that both persons were describing the same vehicle and occupants.

98. It was felt by members of the murder squad team that additional information could well be educed from Miss XXXX if she would agree to be subjected to hypnosis. She was spoken to on these lines, agreed to be hypnotised, but unfortunately when she was taken to Dr XXXX’s consulting rooms she was unable to relax sufficiently to be placed into a state of hypnosis.

99. Although Miss XXXX expressed regret for not being able to be subjected to hypnosis she did state that she would be willing at some future date to try again, It was felt that this would not be a viable proposition due to the lapse of time and her unreliability.

100. Mr XXXX lived in the London area and stated that around 1.45 to 2.p.m. on the Royal Wedding Day he drove his car along the Upper Richmond Road towards East Putney District Line station. As he approached the station he noticed a large light-coloured car parked on the nearside of the road outside the Olivetti building facing towards Wandsworth.

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101. He was not too sure of the description of the vehicle but thought it was possibly a Granada. As Mr XXXX drove towards this vehicle and about to overtake it he saw a man walk from the pavement on to the road at the rear of this vehicle. He had a young boy with him and the men appeared to be leading the child tight by the arms and Mr XXXX saw this man pushing the young boy towards the offside rear of the stationary car. Someone apparently opened the rear door from the inside and the child was pushed into the back of the car.

102. Mr XXXX describes the man as between 30 and 35 years of age, 5′ 10″ tall, slim build, he was smartly dressed in a dark suit and was of Asian appearance. He described this gentleman as of military type.

103. The boy, he recalls, was of about 12 years of age, again of Asian appearance with black hair medium length; slim build and, as far as he could recall, was wearing a short-sleeved shirt and dark coloured trousers.

104. Mr XXXX states that when the Asian gentlemen was bundling the young boy into the rear of the stationary car, he got the impression that the boy seemed to be very surprised at the actions of the man as though he was not quite sure of what was going on. Mr XXXX had to swerve to avoid colliding with this stationary vehicle, when the rear door had been opened and the boy bundled in. It was because of this that Mr XXXX can say that he is positive that there was some other person seated in the rear of the vehicle. He was not too sure of the identity of the person.

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but was of the impression that it was probably a woman wearing a shawl or sari. He was also of the opinion that there was another person seated in the front passenger seat and that all occupants were of the Asian race.

105. Comparing Mr. XXXX’s statement with those of the witnesses, Mr. XXXX and Miss. XXXX it soon came to light that there were similarities in respect of the sightings and possibly vehicles witnessed by all three persons. Mr. XXXX and Mr.XXXX both make mention of the possibility that a woman was seated in the rear of the
car wearing a shawl or sari. Mr. XXXX and Miss. XXXX both make reference to the sighting of a large car containing four Asians during the afternoon of Wednesday, 29th July 1981, the day in question. Mr. XXXX speaks of this particular vehicle seen in Upper Richmond Road which is approximately half a mile from the A3 and of
course Miss. XXX makes reference to the sighting of the Asians in a large car at the garage at which she works which is on the A3.

106. Having discussed the three matters at length, it was decided that an approach should be made to Mr. XXXX to see if he would be to be subjected to hypnosis with a view to educing more information in respect of what he saw on the day in question. Mr. XXXX agreed and 3.23 p.m. on Monday, 23rd August 1982 he was hypnotised by Professor XXXX at the University XXXX. During the hypnosis Mr. XXXX recalled that the vehicle was not light in colour but a very dark blue which now seemed to fit in with the similar vehicle seen by

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Miss. XXXX and probably similar to that seen by Mr. XXXX He stated that the young boy when being bundled into the car appeared startled and Mr. XXXX was of the impression that the child did not actually know the man. He was also positive that there was someone else in the car particularly in the rear of the vehicle and although he could not be certain he seemed to recollect that the person was in fact wearing a white shawl covering the head or shoulders. Other than these facts we were not taken much further forward with regards to identification of the vehicle or the occupants.

107. As a result of the additional information elicited from Mr. XXXX and especially the exact location (outside the Olivetti building which is opposite the flower stall outside the railway station) further enquiries were made by members of the murder
team at Putney, especially that of interviewing persons working at or who were in the vicinity of the Olivetti building. The result was negative.

108. Although there are many similarities in the statements made by Miss. XXXX & Mr. XXXX and Mr. XXXX every possible angle of enquiry has in fact been completed without success.

109. During the afternoon of Wednesday, 29th July 1981 (the Royal Wedding Day) Mr. XXXX was walking on the Southdowns Way and at 3.15 p.m. he had reached a point in the vicinity of Beacon Hill, Elsted. He there saw an Asian boy aged between 8 and 10 years, of thin build and dressed in a striped shirt,

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accompanied by a white male, aged 30 to 40 years and approximately 6′ tall. Mr. XXXX continues his statement by saying that he again saw this couple at approximately 5.15 p.m. the same day when they were walking from Twyford towards the South Downs.

110. As a result a photofit was compiled from the descriptions supplied by Mr. XXXX the white male.

111. Following this report enquiries were made at private and local county schools throughout the area including Petersfield in an effort to establish whether this Asian youth attended any of those schools This was continued by enquiries at hotels, guest houses and similar types of accommodation to ascertain if an Asian family or at least an Asian boy had been a guest at any of those premises. Both these lines of enquiry proved negative.

112. In view of the popularity of the Southdowns Way as a walk for ramblers
and youth organisations, arrangements were made to obtain lists of all persons staying at the youth hostels in the area and also of all rambling clubs to find out if any of the members of those clubs were walking in the vicinity of Beacon Hill during the relevant time. This amounted to several hundred actions but in due course all proved negative.

113. Amongst the statements received from the Metropolitan Police in relation to the enquires prior to the the discovery at Rogate was one from a Mrs. XXXX which also states that on Sunday, 2nd August 1981 at about 6 p.m. she was at Beachlands Fair on the seafront at Hayling Island, Hampshire, with her granddaughter.

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Near one of the amusement arcades she saw an Indian boy aged about 8 years. Mrs. XXXX felt there was a considerable similarity between the photograph in the newspaper of the missing Vishal MEHROTRA and the boy she had seen at the fair.

114. As a result of this statement a team was sent to Hayling Island where they obtained details of all known holiday camps, caravan sites, camping sites, holiday chalets, hotels and boarding houses. All these premises were then visited and records checked to see if any Asians had stayed on the island during the relevant period. Members of the staff at these establishments were also spoken to but none of them could recall any Asian families who were guests at those establishments during the latter part of July or early August 1981.

115. Mr. XXXX was in Petersfield on Saturday, 1st August 1981 when at approximately 11 a.m. he saw a young Indian or Pakistani boy near John Menzies newsagents shop. He describes the boy as being some 10 years of age and approximately 4′ in height. Accompanying this boy was a white female of some 18 to 25 years, 5′ 6″ tall, slim build with short blonde hair. Enquiries in the area discovered a XXXXX the news manager of XXXXX shop, who will state that on a Sunday morning somewhere close to the date of the Royal Wedding a young Indian or Pakistani boy was in the shop between 9 a.m. and 10.30 a.m. He describes the boy as 9 to 12 years old, 4′ tall and very slim.

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116. In view of those sightings in Petersfield enquiries were made of all hotels and guest houses in the town and this was coupled into the enquiry in relation to the sighting of the boy near Beacon Hill. Subsequently a boy was traced to the Petersfield area who had been adopted by a white family and he was found to be the boy who called at the John Menzies shop. We can therefore eliminate the Petersfield sightings from the enquiry as this boy was not the one subject of the other local sighting.

117. On a Saturday in August 1981 a Mr. XXXX of XXXX was driving his car along the country road between Durford and Nursted. At one point where there is a sharp bend in this road he had to stop to permit a Land Rover to pass in the opposite direction; there he saw an Indian or Pakistani boy aged about 11 years, slim build with black hair walking along the grass verge, followed closely by a 30 to 35-year old white man whose description he supplies.

118. The reason he recalls this particular incident in that he noticed that the boy was distinctly unhappy and that there were tears streaming down his face.

119. Following the report of this particular sighting enquiries were made at all houses in the Durford and Nursted area with particular reference to the Land Rover seen by Mr. XXXX. Despite every person in the area being interviewed no trace was found of the boy described by Mr. XXXX nor was it found that any such lad was lodging at any place in the area during the relevant time.

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Goodwood Race Meetings

120. The A272 from Petersfield eastwards is a route used by numerous people to attend race meetings at Goodwood Racecourse. Such a race meeting was being held during the last week of July 1981 at Goodwood and it was therefore thought that persons who attended that race meeting on the Royal Wedding Day may well have passed Alder Copse en route to the racecourse.

121. Initially an audio tape and subsequently a video tape requesting assistance in the Rogate enquiry was made and put into use during the subsequent race meetings in 1982. During the period of these meetings a caravan was situated at the racecourse and a second vehicle at an incident post in the layby opposite Alder Copse. In respect of the latter vehicle signs were once again erected on each side of the A272 approaching the layby requesting persons who had attended the race
meeting at Goodwood during the July 1981 meeting to call at the caravan if they had seen anything which might assist in this enquiry. This particular line of publicity had little or no response from the public with the exception of a statement from a Mr. XXXX which is dealt with in the following paragraphs.

Cortina Estate Car Enquiry

122. Following the further publicity on the anniversary of the Royal Wedding Day, a Mr. XXXX a driver for XXXX contacted the incident post at the layby opposite Alder Copse. Mr. XXXX was uncertain of dates but described to police officers that it was his regular habit of stopping in the layby between 10.50 a.m. and 11.10 a.m. on Saturday mornings. He would then remain for some three quarters of an hour.

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123. On either Saturday, 1st or 8th August 1981 whilst Mr. XXXX was in his lorry in the layby he saw a maroon Mk III Cortina Estate car with an ‘L’ registration pull in behind his vehicle. Mr. XXXX will say that he is certain of the type of vehicle because he own a similar model with the same suffix. He noticed that the driver of the Cortina was of Asian appearance and describes him as some 5′ tall, well built with a pot belly. He considers that this man of Asian appearance was in his late forties. Mr. XXXX watched this man for a short while and then saw him drive his car past the lorry and out onto the A272, turning left towards Rogate. As the vehicle passed, Mr. XXXX noticed that there was a grey blanket covering the whole of the rear compartment. He could see that this was covering some item but had no idea what that item was.

124. At this point a Dutch registered motor car drove in to the layby and Mr. XXXX had a conversation with the occupants regarding the route to Dover. Several minutes later he saw the Ford Cortina driven by the Asian person return to the layby from its west end and park just inside the entrance. Mr. XXXX had no clear recollection of the incidents following this but believes that on looking back to the Cortina that the driver was no longer inthe vehicle. Shortly after this Mr. XXXX left the layby and continued on his journey.

125. Following further interviews Mr. XXXX was able to fix the date on which he stopped in the layby and saw the Asian person as being that of Saturday, 8th August 1981. This he was able to do because of the particular article he was reading in a magazine at that time.

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126. A check was made with PNC and it was found that there were only 163 maroon Cortina Estate cars with the suffix ‘L’. In view of this small number a proforma was designed and sent to police forces for the necessary enquiries to be made of the registered keepers of those Cortinas. XXXXX. At the date of reporting 15 replies leave yet to be received.

Other Missing Boys
127. On the suggestion of the Assistant Chief Constable, Mr. XXXX a request was made to New Scotland Yard for details of boys aged under 15 years who had been reported missing between 1st January 1981 and 31st July 1981 from the Metropolitan Police District and southern England. A total of 377 such children was supplied by R14 Branch of New Scotland Yard and a proforma was then devised requesting that the record of each such missing person be checked to ascertain if he had been the subject of abduction, molestation or had been subjected to any act of indecency whilst ‘missing’.

128. To date all but 34 of these enquiries have been completed but no useful information has been adduced.

Check on Indecency Offenders
129. Prior to the discovery of the bones at Rogate and during the course of the Metropolitan Police enquiry into the disappearance of Vishal MEHROTRA, a number of persons living in the Putney area who had previous convictions for indecency offences were interviewed in order to eliminate them from the enquiry.

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130. Following the discovery of the remains at Rogate in March 1982 the Metropolitan Police continued in the same vein interviewing some fifteen more persons located in or about Putney. In order to augment this enquiry application was made to New Scotland Yard for the records of all indecency offenders in the south of England. These were carefully vetted to eliminate those who for some reason considered not to be possible suspects, leaving some 192 persons to be traced and interviewed.

131. Teams from Sussex with the assistance of Metropolitan officers and officers from other forces throughout the south of England traced a large number of those persons who were then interviewed in order to ensure that they had a sufficiently strong alibi to eliminate them from the enquiry.

132. To date there are still a number of these persons e to be traced. XXXXX

Vishal’s Clothing
133. With the assistance of the police in Putney full details were obtained of the clothing worn by Vishal MEHROTRA on the day of his disappearance. These details were found to be as follows:

(i) Navy short-sleeved blue T-shirt with thin white horizontal stripes. ‘St Michael’ make;

(ii) Black corduroy trousers – two rear and two front pockets with possible ticket pocket at front. KIKKU make. Legs of trousers taken up 3″;

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(iii) ‘Wizfid’ make blue training shoes size 13 child, or size 1 adult, with green coloured toe and heel with four vertical white bars down each side and white laces. The make of the shoe is attached to the tongue and on the side of the heel of both shoes. The shoes were also made in the Philippines;

(iv) Navy blue or could be black and white socks, mid calf or knee length (details vague)

(v) Pair white St. Michael make underpants or pair of white or colour nylon pants with possible figure of Superman thereon. St. Michael’s tab on inside;

(v.i.) Possible white nylon sleeveless vest, made In India with a tab marked ‘Go Gay with Baba/65/BabaS Gentel/Egyptian’.

134. Comment will be made later in this report under the heading of Pathologist’s Report concerning the question of only the upper remains, i.e. bones, of Vishal being found in Alder Copse. From the list of clothing shown above it can be clearly seen that’ numerous items would not rot away completely despite the adverse conditions in Alder Copse.

135. In view of this following the thorough search of the copse itself, the fields nearby, the road verges to the east and west of the copse, nearby woodland and the fox earths were also searched an attempt to locate any item of clothing which could be identified as that of Vishal.

136. The importance of tracing this clothing in obvious in that it would help to assist with the movements of the child and also as to whether he was placed naked in the copse. Certain items were found in or about the copse such as plimsolls and socks and these were later shown to the father, Mr. MEHROTRA, but found not

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to be those worn by Vishal on the day of his disappearance.

137. All forces in the United Kingdom were telexed giving a full description of the clothing and this was also passed to the media who by their various channels circulated the description to the public.

138. To date no item of clothing worn by Vishal on the 29th July 1981 has been recovered.

Pathologist’s Report
139. As stated earlier, Dr. XXXXX attended Alder Copse and examined the remains in situ. He then took away the recovered bones for further examination, other items found being later conveyed to his laboratory.

140. Dental charts were obtained of Vishal MEHROTRA by the Putney team and following examination of the jaw bones and recovered teeth together with the super-imposed photograph of the skull, Dr XXXXX was satisfied that the bones found in Alder Copse were those of Vishal MEHROTRA.

141. The pathologist makes it clear in his statement that:
(a) None of the lower bones of the body were amongst the bones recovered from Alder Copse.
(b) He found nothing to suggest that the body had been dismembered deliberately after death;
(c) He was unable to determine the cause of death and could find no evidence of any disease in the remains to account for death.

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(a) Vishal MEHROTRA was last seen in Upper Richmond Road, Putney by his sister and nanny at approximately 1.40 p.m. on Wednesday, 29th July 1981.

(b) The bones subsequently identified as the remains of Vishal were found in Alder Copse, Nr. Rogate, West Sussex on 21st February 1982;

(c) Only bones from the upper part of the body were recovered from Alder Copse;

(d) The pathologist could find no indication that the body had been dismembered deliberately after death;

(e) The pathologist could find no sign of natural disease in the recovered bones which would have accounted for the death

(f) Vermin could well have been responsible for the removal of many of the lower. bones from the copse;

(g) No clothing belonging to Vishal was found at or near Alder Copse;

(h) The only “connection” between Upper Richmond Road and Alder Copse is the close vicinity of the A3 trunk road;

Therefore, despite extensive enquiries we are unable to say when, how, where or why Vishal died.

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Liaison with Other Forces
143. In addition to constant liaison with the Metropolitan Police (Putney), discussions and contact were made as set out below;

(i) Detective Superintendent XXXXX Devon & Cornwall Constabulary re Genette TATE missing since August 1978;

(ii) Detective Chief Inspector XXXXX of Northumberland Constabulary re murder of Susan MAXWELL in August 1982;

(iii) Detective Inspector XXXXX Staffordshire Constabulary re body of Susan MAXWELL found in Uttoxeter;

(iv) Detective Superintendent XXXXX of North Yorkshire Constabulary re murder of David MILNER on 14th August 1982;

(v) Detective Superintendent XXXXX Leicestershire Constabulary re man CORRIGAN in custody awaiting :trial fox the murder of a young boy;

(vi) Detective Inspector XXXXX Hampshire Constabulary re the murder of two women in a park in Aldershot in August 1982,

Liaison with the Father of Vishal
144. Throughout the inquiry the Putney officers have updated Mr. MEHROTRA with aspects of the enquiry and on one occasion he visited the incident room at Chichester.

H. M. Coroner
145. A file will now be submitted to H. M. Coroner for West Sussex in order that an inquest can be held in the near future, which will then permit the release of the remains to Vishal’s relatives.

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Supplementary Report
146. A number of enquiries are still outstanding and on their completion a supplementary report will be submitted.

147. I ask that copies of this report be forwarded to the Assistant Chief Constable, Operations, Sussex Police, and Detective Chief Superintendent XXXXX Metropolitan Police (two copies).

Gerald H, Curd
Detective Superintendent

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Filed under Uncategorized


The Friday Night Song.


Filed under FNS, Uncategorized

The Day Before You Came

The Friday night song.


Filed under FNS, Personal, Uncategorized

David Rose and The Observer’s rape fabrications

Post by @darrenlavertyx.

Source: David Rose and The Observer’s rape fabrications

A video which demonstrates that both Journalist David Rose and The Observer attempted to discredit a North Wales Survivor by illegally using a North Wales Police Statement and amending it to include very damaging, and entirely false, allegations of rape.

False allegations which have led Darren Laverty to face continued harassment to this day.

The article was published in 1992 at a critical time for the investigation into child abuse in North Wales care homes, including Bryn Estyn where Darren had been a resident.


Filed under Uncategorized

Aylesbury Child Sex Ring

Six men involved in a child sex ring in Buckinghamshire have been found guilty of abusing two schoolgirls on a “massive scale”.
The Old Bailey heard the abuse in Aylesbury went on for years and involved rape and child prostitution.
Eleven defendants faced trial, accused of 47 sexual offences between 2006 and 2012.
Four were cleared of any wrongdoing, while the jury could not reach a verdict on one of the men.
The six who have been convicted will be sentenced in September.

BBC 24.7.15


The Aylesbury child sex ring was not discovered as most would expect – with a victim complaining to the police, a parent voicing concerns or online surveillance. It began with the main victim – known throughout the case as child A – trying to prevent her own children being taken into care.

Between the ages of 12 and 16, she had sex with about 60 men, nearly all of them Asian. Sometimes, this sex was “consensual”, sometimes it was rape.

The efforts of Buckinghamshire social services to have Child A’s two young sons taken into care were halted when she spoke out about sexual abuse she had suffered. The case – heard in the Family Court – had centred on her own fitness to be a mother. The police investigation into Child A’s claims started soon after.

Social services were well aware of the victim – she had been on its children-at-risk register from the age of seven. And over the years the records held by various public organisations about her life swelled. But paperwork did not prevent the ongoing abuse of Child A, or a second girl – Child B – who was also abused by some of the men and who, again, was known to social services.

It is understood Child A may have raised issues of sexual abuse previously with social services but nothing was done.

David Johnston, managing director for children’s services at Buckinghamshire County Council, declined to comment on any “previous contact (Child A had) with social care”.


BBC 24.7.15




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