Let’s begin by examining the points that Harvey Proctor made yesterday in his press conference (transcript of full statement Here) that I disagree with.
Firstly, Harvey Proctor alleged that the police investigation was a “homosexual witch hunt”. This is not true. Homosexuals are attracted to other men, heterosexuals are attracted to members of the opposite sex, paedophiles and pederasts are attracted to minors. Those that abuse young boys might self-identify as either homosexual or heterosexual. Yes, that is correct. Men who self-identify as heterosexuals can, and do, sexually abuse young boys. I’d just like to thank R for sharing his insights with me after decades of research into this.
Another point that Harvey Proctor made that is entirely wrong, is the suggestion that Tom Watson MP has used parliamentary privilege to allude to this case. His question on 24th October 2012 at PMQs (Here) is completely unrelated to Operation Midland and to the best of my knowledge he rarely comments on allegations, he just passes them on to the police when possible. This extract from The Guardian interview with him last year demonstrates that he seems to take a responsible and balanced view on Operation Midland.
Nevertheless, ever since putting his parliamentary question, Watson has been overwhelmed by an “avalanche” of allegations against much more powerful men from “survivors who are very, very damaged and angry and upset”, had previously gone to the police and been disbelieved, and now saw him as a new gateway to justice.
“A slightly reluctant gateway,” he confesses. A “naturally disorganised person”, equipped with neither the skills nor the resources to process the deluge of allegations, at times Watson wondered what he had got himself into.
Does he believe what the accusers tell him? He looks awkward. “I’m not here to investigate, or to judge.” He has met the man known as Nick, but “it was a very, very traumatic and difficult conversation, as you would imagine. He only told me about one murder. He spoke very slowly, very intermittently, and I didn’t need to hear any more.” Did Watson trust the account? He sighs uneasily. “These allegations, they’re so enormous that you need critical faculties. What I’m certain of is that he’s not delusional. He is either telling the truth, or he’s made up a meticulous and elaborate story.
So, whatever else can be said about the current situation that Harvey Proctor finds himself in, it is neither politically motivated or a homosexual witch hunt.
One final point that I vehemently disagree with Harvey Proctor on is his suggestion that ‘complainants’ (his preferred term) should not have guaranteed anonymity. I think this is a valuable principle which should not be eroded. Obviously, if the police feel that a ‘complainant’ should be charged with perverting the course of justice, as happened with Ben Fellows who was found not guilty, the complainant becomes the accused and has no right to anonymity but I’m confident that in this case ‘Nick’ has not sought to pervert the course of justice and so I do not think that this will be an issue.
Having examined the points that I disagree with Harvey Proctor on I want to turn to the points that I sympathise with him on.
I do not believe the allegations against him which are being investigated by Operation Midland are true. I believe that ‘Nick’ was sexually abused as a child but I do not believe that Harvey Proctor and many of the others that were named yesterday are responsible. It was for this reason that The Needle did not republished many of the media allegations regarding Operation Midland over the last year.
The broad facts as I see them, and this information is all in the public domain, is that ‘Nick’ had previously made a complaint to the police several months before he went again to them with an Exaro journalist. I think it is safe to assume that the information that was given to the police in this second interview was substantively different from that which was given to the police on the first occasion. What happened in those intervening months, and who ‘Nick’ had been in contact with, we can not know but what we do know is that someone, either Exaro or someone else, showed photographs to ‘Nick’ which helped him identify the ‘suspects’ and that later at the Operation Midland press conference last year the Metropolitan Police criticised this.*
Much has been made of the fact that the Head of Operation Midland, Detective Superintendent Kenny McDonald had said on television some months ago “I believe what ‘Nick’ is saying as credible and true “. Many have understandably assumed that if the police take these allegations seriously then there must be something in them, right ?
This, in my view, ill-advised statement needs to be seen in the context of the dysfunctional police/media relationship which has developed over the last three years and also the probability that these allegations seemed to corroborate, at least in part, other information that the police had received. I’m not in a position to discuss other information the police may have received but I can try to give readers some idea of the kind of pressure that some media outlets have brought to bear. An obvious example is this story in The Express, Here. The source of this story has been referred to the in the press as ‘Andrew’. ‘Andrew’ has been the source of a great many false stories in the press, including Exaro, over the last 2 years including a rather revolting allegation against a former female MP reported again in The Express, which even Exaro publicly distanced themselves from. The story relates that ‘Andrew’ was shown a photograph of a former BBC executive who he then identified as a person who abused him. Instead of going to the police with the allegation (the police no doubt knew all about ‘Andrew’ by this stage) the information was passed to the BBC. Given the current situation the BBC are in, they had no alternative but to pass this, and indeed any allegation of sexual abuse they receive, to the Metropolitan Police, who in turn could not do anything other than investigate an allegation passed to them by the BBC. The Express could then legitimise their story by correctly claiming that, “Detectives are investigating claims that a retired BBC executive abused young boys at his home in Amsterdam.” I have no idea whether this ‘former BBC executive’ was an abuser or not but what I do know without a shadow of a doubt is that this story was completely engineered, taking advantage of the predicament that both the BBC and police now find themselves in and this ‘story’ is not unique.
Reflect also on the fact that only a few months before ‘Nick’ went to the police with an Exaro journalist, Exaro had forced out the head of Operation Fairbank, Detective Chief Inspector Paul Settle over, in my view, a disgraceful series of stories that suggested the DCI Settle had failed to adequately pursue Leon Brittan over a rape allegation by an Exaro source known as ‘Jane’. This had nothing to do with campaigning for justice and everything to do with squeezing every last drop from their story. I could go into great detail about this but I’ll leave that there. Suffice it to say that it was an appalling example of the lowest type of journalism, one that does not serve the interests of their ‘source’ and thoroughly misleads the public.
Given all of this context, is it really any wonder that the police might be concerned to be perceived to be not taking allegations of child sexual abuse seriously ? Don’t get me wrong, the situation that the police, the CPS, and some other institutions find themselves in is one entirely of their own making. It is because of their historic failures to investigate CSA and credible allegations of cover-up that has brought them to this difficult place but it is some in the media that have exploited the situation.
For almost two years we on The Needle have been waiting for the inevitable consequences of this dysfunctional police/media relationship to come to a head. All this time we’ve been concerned about how it may affect those genuine abuse victims who go to the police. Did those pushing these stories, while claiming to be campaigners ever consider this ?
There are some who have questioned Harvey Proctor’s right to speak candidly about the allegations made against him. He has every right to give his side of the story. If he had been arrested or charged with an offence then that would be a different matter but he has not and so he has as much right to speak to the media as those who have made allegations against him.
Any genuine journalist or campaigner will welcome the new information, it is only those that seek to close down any debate and attack objectivity and balance that seem to be upset that Harvey Proctor has made a statement.
Pathetic and puerile comments like this one by Exaro editor Mark Watts, which seem to accuse anyone who dares to question of being ‘Paedo-Protectors’, or ‘on the side of abusers’.
This is how a cult works, by marginalising and insulting the objective commentators the debate becomes dominated by extremists, and those too scared to voice an objection. Worse still are the behind the scenes rumour spreading and smears all designed to undermine anyone that can think independently. N0ne of it helps survivors of CSA, none of it !
I’m not going to go into details of why I believe Harvey Proctor when he states that these Operation Midland allegations are untrue. I will say that it was my view before yesterday and that the details from the press statement only confirmed what I already thought to be the case.
The police are still investigating these allegations, I hope that they conclude their investigation expeditiously and on conclusion make a clear and unequivocal statement about it.
* NB, I’ve been told by two reliable and independent sources that the Metropolitan Police criticism of ‘photo ID was directed at another journalist and not Exaro. That said it was Exaro that claimed in a story that Nick had identified the suspects because of photographs that they had shown him.
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Exaro’s reporter at the press conference was the agency’s editor.
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Exaro’s reporter at the press conference made a bit of a spectacle of himself, pursuing two lines of questioning which bordered on hysterical shrieking and prompted tuts and sighs from a lot of other reporters present. The editor’s tweets in the aftermath demonstrated a total lack of objectivity and flirted with overt defamation – especially the multiple messages which basically stated as fact that ‘Nick’ was genuine and all his allegations were true.
That is true, neither of us know how many witnesses have come forward to Operation Midland. But I certainly remember that time, and Harvey Proctor was “known” among the rent boys. The sting by the News of the World was exposing in the public domain what was already known “on the street”. But, I repeat, there is a difference between being a user of rent boys & paying them to be beaten for your sexual gratification – and what “Nick” is talking about in terms of rape of children, torture and murder.
Or how many witnesses have not come forward to Op Midland.
What we do have now is Proctor’s police disclosure document which only contains allegations that originate from Nick. I think it would be safer to assume that Nick is the only witness that the police take seriously than to assume that there are other unknown witnesses who have provided undisclosed testimony.
I personally believe that there are witnesses other than ‘Andrew’ and ‘Darren’ who have come forward but I don’t think they’ve identified Proctor necessarily.
And to be clear I said that I didn’t believe Proctor was guilty and also MANY others named. I did not say ALL others. There is at least one person who was named that I think was involved in Nick’s abuse but he’s not very well known.
Gojam
I take it from this comment above that you regard ‘Nick’ as a genuine abuse victim/survivor? Can you give some insight as to why you have arrived at this view ,without breaching confidentiality (I understand fully if you can’t)?
MI5 run the blackmailed Westminster paedophiles and protect their Royal one. That’s their job.
An interesting article, and interesting comments. I would only make one general comment and that is that “Nick” is not the only person who has made allegations re Harvey Proctor to Operation Midland. His name came up from a variety of sources and more than one witness.
I am sure that Harvey Proctor thinks that all his “sexual engagements” were consensual, after all he was paying for them. I’m sure his tears are genuine. However, I would prefer the police thoroughly investigate and any allegations to be tested in a court of law. Just like Rolf Harris, Max Clifford, & William Roach. But unlike McAlpine and Leon Brittan.
Interesting. Have you got a source?
Exaro from whoever their contact is in Operation Midland.
Hi,
As I understand it (and I accept I could be wrong) the corroborative sources that Exaro used in their earlier stories were ‘Andrew’ and ‘Darren’
I remember reading that Op Midland had been given Proctor’s name by several/many? different people. Of course, just when you need it, I can’t find the original report… I know someone is trying to imply that it could be a case of “mistaken identity”, but after the 1988 After Dark broadcast, I don’t think there would be much confusion among the actual “rent boys” of the time. Basically, he was well-known. But again, there is a difference being known as a nonce with a penchant for “the English Vice” and being identified as a rapist, torturer & murder. I just think the police are, finally, doing their job which they spectacularly failed to do previously. And Proctor has only been questioned and not charged.
However, as Proctor was not, shall we say, *inside* the Establishment, someone may throw him to the dogs… He is small fry to MI5 in comparison to Heath or Brittan.
Although Theresa May has claimed that security service agents can speak out without fear of the Official Secrets Act, I think that the allegations against MI6 re Kincora (blackmail), possibly EGH (blackmail), McAlpine, Heath & Dolphin Square (possible disposal of bodies) are *so* damaging as to never being allowed to see the light of day. I have no doubt the secret services saw themselves as protecting the state, but they also viewed themselves as above the law.
I think this is an important point. I’m pretty sure that Exaro were using both ‘Andrew’ (who I’ve referred to in this post) and ‘Darren’ as corroborative sources in their early stories. Certainly, Exaro reported a story much earlier from ‘Andrew’ that bore close resemblance to the Nick allegations and our view was that he was their first corroborative source and that ‘Darren’ was their second. In both cases I’m sure they were abused as children but I’m not convinced that their allegations in relation to Nick’s allegation are worth very much unfortunately.
There may very well be other witnesses. I don’t know. You don’t know, If Exaro is your source and unless they explicitly deny that ‘Andrew’ and ‘Darren’ were the sources that they used to corroborate Nick’s allegations, then how can we know ? It’s just supposition.
Thanks both.
that a smoke and mirrors op would run a series of projects that are intended to fail and then the whole op implodes in order to discredit independently produced material addressing similar matters is not an unreasonable concept.
tis just a variation of the “macalpine defense” on a grander scale.
however it is destined to fail when the gambit has been exposed before hand
having started this project by looking at the context of the “kincora”events and at first being rather baffled by the assorted smoke and mirrors relating to that perhaps i am a little prone to look behind the headline or rumour or allegation for the reasons it was made and who gains by it as well as trying to establish facts and the relationship between those facts.
those principles often seem most effective when then looks very closely at those involved or originating such things.
sometimes the data ,headline ,rumour or allegation has both internal and external consistency and logic and appears to be accurate sometimes it fails on one or many points.
if trying to establish what is true and what is false makes me seem a spook or apologist /denier or fool to some if what i find does not fit their world view and they cannot convince me with the data and argument they present i prefer to question their motives and methods rather than mine which are based on gathering data ,attempting to see how it fits together and then applying both cui bono and occam’s razor to my hypothesis before adjusting it accordingly and holding it out for peer review and always adapting the hypothesis if necessary as new data or interpretations become available.
as far as i can tell gojam and many others who post here work to similar standards and attempt to sort truth from falsehood wherever the data takes us even if that does not always match our or others prior belief .
ps if we were “black hats” as it seems between us we are mostly fairly efficient at what we do (including correcting our mistakes)and so could probably create smoke and mirrors far more effectively than many of those in that trade ,rather than that we try to blow away smoke and break mirrors when required which not only adds to truth but can expose the “black hats” and their methods and what they are attempting to conceal.
Thanks dpack.
One of the reasons The Needle has been a little quiet recently is that we’ve been looking into some Kincora related stuff. Hopefully we’ll have something up reasonably soon.
me too
It fascinates me that, the whole “Stalker Affair” has singularly failed to raise its’ head this last couple of years. Even if the details that most know were utter tosh, it’s the sort of detail that I am surprised others haven’t jumped on and expounded their own thoughts on and about. After all, much of what has occurred does genuinely point to the idea that “Stalker Affair” might well have legs. That was the first time I heard specific details about Kincora rather than, just rumour and gossip.
you might find the cory report interesting
Click to access cory03finucane.pdf
the cain website has a wealth of other information as well as the above
http://cain.ulst.ac.uk/
Very well said. Thank you.
Reblogged this on DR Laverty and commented:
Like an axe falling on a snowball. Exaro intelligently trashed again
Well well well. How the Cookie crumbles? Remember TBIJ showing Messham some photo’s? Not McAlpine ones though. Not forgetting “James” who saw Sir Peter Morrison at Bryn Estyn (no secrets there) and told Channel Four News of his accounts. 5 times was it? Each day I manage to spy a little more light through these darkened windows.
Reluctantly, I think I need to add my two-pennorth …
Like Go Jam, after questioning the techniques and responsibility of Exaro I was attacked as either a spook or one of their fellow-travellers. (I’m neither: simply a journalist who has done his best for a long time to expose the problem of paedophilia and get something done about it.)
It really doesn’t help anyone – least of all those who were historically abused as children or the many, many thousands who are being abused today – to have this sort of over-heated and polarised argument.
Any approach which is predicated on ‘my enemy’s enemy is my friend’ (or vice versa) will only play into the hands of those who wish – for whatever reason – seek to downplay the terrible and widespread problem of child sexual abuse.
Go Jam, in my experience over the past 18 months, has worked very hard to bring the problem to light in a measured and responsible way. Others ? Less so.
I agree one should be able to ask Exaro etc questions, although one should not expect a reply, and not getting a reply does not mean they are hiding things. I find this post by Gojam, and the almost identical one by his new pal Scott incredibly irresponsible, accusatory, and based not on facts but speculation. Without giving any evidence to support his assumptions, and his conclusion the above post is far from measured and responsible.
It is mighty strange that Scott, HP, and Gojam are now singing from the same book – who would have thought it.
“It is mighty strange that Scott, HP, and Gojam are now singing from the same book – who would have thought it.”
Who would have thought ? Not me, for one.
“One should not expect a reply” ? Why not ?
I take the time and trouble to respond to those who asks questions about my journalism; any particular reason Exaro should not do likewise ?
Well Gojam,
Seems Mathew Scott, CSS skeptic, and you are now bedfellas. The plot thickens and it seems the establishment with a little help from their friends are setting the stage to take down Exaro and us it to destroy any others claiming VIP child abuse.
Oh and before you think ‘Exaro did it to themselves’ keep in mind that the establishment have kept the lid on VIP abuse for several decades. They have done so with the help of the police, the spooks, the media etc. They have ben playing a very long game, and it is ludicrous to think they would just sit back, and do NOTHING, as the curtians fall exposing the sinister, dark side of power. With that said, assuming you are not working for them, you might want to reflect on how you might have helped them achieve their agenda
Hi, I’ve never had any contact with him so we’re not “bedfellows”.
But do you know pedophile and boy procurer TERRY DWYER,Gojam? Mr Proctor knew him very well and used to visit his seedy little den in Hull,complete with torture rack.Lord Fox,Coltman st,Hull.
Ps-Heard of Jo and Co,Gojam?
I’ve never see any reference to HP going to Dwyer’s place in Hull.
Find it, show me.
Have you heard of Google,Gojam?
Try the Hull Daily Mail.
Court case files and notes re Dwyer.
Police raid.
Lord Fox,coltman st-upstairs-torture chamber…Torture chamber…ring any bells,Gojam?
Terry Dwyer(pedophile and child procurer) and your good friend mr Harvey Proctor…
Now YOU go and find it.Do it.NOW.
Good boy.
Now what did Dwyer and Haddon have in common,Gojam?
And while we’re here,what does Harvey Proctor and the BBC children in need have in common,Gojam?
Penny dropped yet?
Oh,and dont use that puerile condescending tone with us,sunshine,it just makes you look even more of an establishment protecting/filtering pathetic jerk than you already are,and will be shown to be.
ps-Good to see you supporting The White Flowers Campaign,btw.Good man.
Just because you use a different name and IP doesn’t mean I don’t know who you are Space Cadet.
We can tell who you are by the way you write and because you always come across as a complete knob.
Here – https://theneedleblog.wordpress.com/2015/04/01/terry-dwyer-hull-daily-mail-newspaper-cuttings/
I was the one that published them after contacting a journalist from the Hull Daily Mail and there is no evidence or reference that suggests that Proctor ever visited Dwyer’s place in Hull
Tsh! you really are an amateur. Most of the people that leave comments here are far better informed than you.
PS, you’re banned remember? Don’t bother trying to post again.
watch out chaps,we have a creepy stalker-a paranoid establishment grass,at that.A very foolish man,trying to convince everyone hes defending child abuse victims.(that’s YOU,btw-Gojam)
ps-of course we have different IP addresses,you silly sausage.
There you go, the same knob-like characteristics that The Needle team find both amusing and ill-informed.
Why do you comment here if you think that ?
You’re obsessed with me. Maybe you and your friends should stop circle jerking in your bedroom while your Mum’s making you all tea and start doing some proper research.
And just to remind you, you’re banned.
PS, I have no intention of undermining Richard Kerr who is a genuine victim of abuse when he was at Kincora but maybe you might like to ask him why he won’t deal with Exaro any more and why an Exaro journalist resigned recently. Just a tip from someone who does do their research.
Is there a good reason for not publishing my previous comment?
I certainly can see none, unless plain-speaking is threatening to some.
Say it ain’t so.
Yes I banned you remember. Go and play elsewhere.
Good comment Gojam, even if I don’t agree with quite all of it. I had noticed from reading various blogs that Nick’s allegations had undergone something of a metamorphosis. I feel it’s doubtful we will ever really know what happened.
Gojam,
Are you working for HP or maybe the spooks? It seems clear from your posts etc that you have got it in for Exaro, and at every opportunity you find ways to trash them. It also seems clear that rather than help expose VIP abuse, you seems to be doing rather a good job on muddying the waters.
Take your post above. You assume that what Nick told the police 7 months prior to his visit with Exaro was ‘substantially’ different. I think if one went back to the police with a very different story 7 months later, the police would be very skeptical and ask a lot of tough questions. You then suggest that during 7 month period Nick might have been coached by Exaro, and just to make sure the police took this new set of allegations seriously they got the guy leading the operation fired.
Well given you have no problem making wild speculations, I think I will give it a go also. Here’s a thought. Maybe during the 7 months, Nick was recruited by the spooks and together they created this story. HP agreed to act as the fall guy knowing that when he finally went to the press it would severly undermine the credibility of VIP child abuse. Just yesterday, Danny Fink was all over twitter asking if anyone thought it was credible that HP was going to castrate Nick with Heath present? I assume Fink knows that castrating boys is certainly something that happens, so the only point to Fink’s question was to cast doubt on VIP’s being involved in such horrendous acts. So the spooks, who have a history of cover up and misdirection when it comes to VIP child abuse, recruit Nick and HP to pull it off. HP gets to articulate, to a full press court, the story in such a way that it beggers belief, and in doung so puts back to sleep the public who were slowly waking up to VIP child abuse.
Gojam, like you I will not go into detail why I think the spooks are involved in this, but I will say it was my view before yesterday also.
well put Tricia best counter so far, I’m with you!
A very good post. Well done.
HP’s statement is typical lawyer and politician fodder to discredit, distract and mislead on every level. Will this meticulously manufactured spiel drive away true allegations? Yes. It’s also clear from cloak & dagger comments on here that you’ll roll with the dominant voice regardless of having any access to police evidence or knowing anyone involved. British psyche still intact.
Proctor’s statement was as coached as Janner’s daughter in court saying aloud, ‘let’s go home and have a nice ice cream’ when it was pissing with rain outside. One hope’s the heinous alleged crimes aren’t true but by their nature no turn should be left unturned in establishing who is guilty and who isn’t.
Politicians, Police, Peodophiles…. and your all passing judgements on what’s true?!
Wonder how much Raza Sakhi and Nabeel Gatrad are getting paid?
“and your all passing judgements”
and you aren’t? Hypocrite.
the solanki,tricker,lb films and politician at dover group of stories is another good example of confusion in action (albeit perhaps a rather desperate rearguard action)imho.
i think we probably eventually separated the various themes correctly and made sense of them but the msm and the wider public did not and the damage was done.
Reblogged this on Floating-voter.
Excellent piece and my thoughts exactly. Well done.
Just to clarify one point. I have seen evidence that there was a senior BBC executive active as a paedophile between London and Holland in the mid 1980’s and later. I know that allegation was passed to Fernbridge, but as with most of the others (including why have the Police not even tried to speak to the directors of the company RAWRO), I suspect they were swamped, pressured from above and now more interested in looking to be acting than doing so.
Hi BB,
Re: the BBC executive. That is why I said I don’t know. The problem with these stories is there is often the some kind of evidence against the accused that lends the story apparent credibility, it is the same “cart before the horse” ruse that can be found with the EGH allegations. You research a name, find he has previous and so you’re more inclined to believe, the truth is that in most cases the persons name has been included precisely because they have previous. The former BBC executive may well be an abuser for all I know, the point was to demonstrate how a story can be engineered using an unreliable source.
I see no evidence of Harvey Proctor being at these parties. As far as I know, he has never been interested in S&M, only, (formal), Corporal Punishment, where he plays the part of a Headmaster.
No where in Nick’s account were details of Harvey Proctor caning boys, slippering boys, ect, the only reference to CP was when Harvey Proctor is said to have asked Nick to hit another boy with a ‘wooden baton’. Not a cane, or even a paddle, and Harvey asked Nick to do it.
Why would Harvey Proctor go to these parties and not indulge in his main sexual, passion?
Maybe mistaken identity, a paedophile living in Brixton at the time was tall, blonde I believe, and into all the anal sex that Nick said went on. He had another paedophile friend, who was a doctor, and Nick mentioned a doctor.
The descriptions sound nothing like Harvey Proctor.
I’m beginning to think, Stephen, that you should speak directly to Mark Watts, or to Operation Midland for that matter, if you have direct information on these matters. Everyone, I repeat everyone (except MI5 & MI6 who have skin in the game), just want to get to the truth of the matter. If there is a good argument for mistaken identity – please tell the police.
“I see no evidence of Harvey Proctor being at these parties , if you have information contact the police. So Mr Proctor has never been interested in S& M, rather odd that you seem to know a lot about Harvey Proctor’s sex life”
Excellent comment. Thank you.