One very important point to make is that this statement has not been checked exactly with what he actually said today.
STATEMENT BY MR KEITH HARVEY PROCTOR
MADE IN THE MARLBOROUGH ROOM, ST.ERMIN’S HOTEL, LONDON
NOT FOR RELEASE BEFORE 2PM ON TUESDAY 25th AUGUST 2015
I am a private citizen. I have not held public office and I have not sought public office since May 1987. As such, I am entitled to be regarded as a private citizen. Since the General Election of 1987 I have sought a private life. I have been enjoying a full life, gainfully employed and personally happy.
This all came to an abrupt end on 4th March 2015. What now follows is a statement on my present predicament created by an unidentified person making totally untrue claims against my name. Before going any further I wish to make it clear that the genuine victims of child sexual abuse have my fullest sympathy and support and I would expect the full weight of the law to be used against anyone, be he ‘ever so high, or ever so low’, committing such odious offences. Nobody and I repeat, nobody is above the law.
2. However, I attach equal weight to justice for innocent people wrongly accused of child sexual abuse, especially when it is done anonymously. This is what is happening to me and many high profile figures, many of whom are dead and cannot answer back. This statement is necessarily lengthy and detailed and at times complicated. Please bear with me and at the end I will be prepared to answer your questions.
3. On 18th June, 2015, at my request, I was interviewed by the Metropolitan Police Murder Squad “Operation Midland”. This interview lasted over 6 hours. At the very outset I had to help the Police with my full name which they appeared not to know. It may surprise you that it was over 3 and an half months after my home was searched for 15 hours and more than 7 months after the most serious allegations were made against me that I was interviewed. I went on to cooperate fully with the Police with their investigation.
4. The allegations have been made by a person who the Police have dubbed with a pseudonym – “NICK”. He appears on television with a blacked out face and an actor’s voice. All of this is connected with alleged historical child sexual abuse in the 1970ies and 1980ies. “NICK” was interviewed by the Police in the presence of a reporter from Exaro – an odd internet news agency.
5. As a Member of Parliament I always spoke in favour of the police. I believe in law and order and I believe in equipping the police to do their job and , with my track record, it will come as a surprise that I have grave and growing concerns about the Police generally and more specifically “Operation Midland”. I have decided to share these concerns with you. I believe I am not speaking just for myself today. I hope I am not being presumptuous when I say I feel I am speaking for those who have no voice whatsoever including the dead to whom I referred moments ago.
6. Two days before my interview with the Police, my Solicitors – Sakhi Solicitors of Leicester – were sent a “disclosure” document. It set out the matters the Police wished to discuss with me. It was the first time I had known of what I had been accused. On the day of my interview I was not arrested, nor placed on Police bail, I was told I could leave the Police Station at any time and that it was a voluntary interview. I and my Solicitors had previously been told I was not a suspect.
7. At the end of the interview I was given no information as to how much longer the Police investigation would take to bring the matter to a conclusion. I think you will understand I cannot allow this matter to rest.
8. So you can gauge how angry I am and in an attempt to stop the “drip, drip, drip” of allegations by the police into the media , I now wish to share with you in detail the uncorroborated and untrue allegations that have been made against me by “NICK”. Anyone of a delicate or a nervous disposition should leave the room now.
9. The following is taken from the Police disclosure document given to my Solicitors two days before my first interview with the Police under the headings “Circumstances”, “Homicides” and “Sexual abuse”.
I QUOTE:-
“ Circumstances
The victim in this investigation is identified under the pseudonym “Nick”. He made allegations to the Metropolitan Police Service in late 2014. Due to the nature of the offences alleged, “Nick” is entitled to have his identity withheld.
“Nick” stated he was the victim of systematic and serious sexual abuse by a group of adult males over a period between 1975 and 1984. The abuse was often carried out whilst in company with other boys whom were also abused by the group.
“Nick” provided names of several individuals involved in these acts including Mr HARVEY PROCTOR. He states MR PROCTOR abused him on a number of occasions which included sexual assault, buggery and torturous assault. He also states MR PROCTOR was present when he was assaulted by other adult males. Furthermore, “Nick” states he witnessed the murder of three young boys on separate occasions. He states MR PROCTOR was directly responsible for two of the allegations and implicated in the third.
The dates and locations relevant to MR PROCTOR are as follows:-
Homicides
1980 – at a residential house in central London. “Nick” was driven by car to an address in the Pimlico/Belgravia area where a second boy (the victim) was also collected in the same vehicle. Both boys, aged approximately 12-years-old, were driven to another similar central London address. MR PROCTOR was present with another male. Both boys were led to the back of the house. MR PROCTOR then stripped the victim, and tied him to a table. He then produced a large kitchen knife and stabbed the child through the arm and other parts of the body over a period of 40 minutes. A short time later MR PROCTOR untied the victim and anally raped him on the table. The other male stripped “Nick” and anally raped him over the table. MR PROCTOR then strangled the victim with his hands until the boy’s body went limp. Both males then left the room. Later, MR PROCTOR returned and led “Nick” out of the house and into a waiting car.
1981-82 – at a residential address in central London. “Nick” was collected from Kingston train station and taken to a “party” at a residential address. The witness was among four young boys. Several men were present including MR PROCTOR. One of the men told the boys one of them would die that night and they had to choose who. When the boys wouldn’t decide, the men selected one of the boys (the victim). Each of the four boys including “Nick” were taken to separate rooms for “private time”. When they all returned to the same room, Nick was anally raped by MR PROCTOR and another male as “punishment”. The other males also anally raped the remaining boys. MR PROCTOR and two other males then began beating the chosen victim by punching and kicking. The attack continued until the boy collapsed on the floor and stopped moving. All of the men left the room. The remaining boys attempted to revive the victim but he was not breathing. They were left for some time before being taken out of the house and returned to their homes.
Between May and July 1979 – in a street in Coombe Hill, Kingston. Nick was walking in this area with another boy (the victim) when he heard the sound of a car engine revving. A dark-coloured car drove into the victim knocking him down. “Nick” could see the boy covered in blood and his leg bent backwards. A car pulled up and “Nick” was grabbed and placed in the car. He felt a sharp pain in his arm and next remembered being dropped off at home. He was warned not to have friends in future. “Nick” never saw the other boy again. “Nick” does not identify MR PROCTOR as being directly involved in this allegation. However, he states MR PROCTOR was part of the group responsible for the systematic sexual abuse he suffered. Furthermore, he believes the group were responsible for the homicide.
Sexual Abuse
1978-1984 – Dolphin Square, Pimlico. “Nick” was at the venue and with at least one other young boy. MR PROCTOR was present with other males.MR PROCTOR told “Nick” to pick up a wooden baton and hit the other boy. When “Nick” refused he was punished by MR PROCTOR and the other males. He was held down and felt pain in his feet. He fell unconscious. When he awoke he was raped by several males including MR PROCTOR.
1978-1981 – Carlton Club, central London, “Nick” was driven to the Carlton Club and dropped off outside. MR PROCTOR opened the door. Inside the premises were several other males. “Nick” was sexually assaulted by another male (not by MR PROCTOR on this occasion ).
1978-1981 – swimming pool in central London. “Nick” was taken to numerous ‘pool parties’ where he and other boys were made to undress, and perform sexual acts on one another. He and other boys were then anally raped and sexually abused by several men including MR PROCTOR.
1981-1982 – Large town house in London. “Nick” was taken to the venue on numerous occasions where MR PROCTOR and one other male were present. He was forced to perform oral sex on MR PROCTOR who also put his hands around “Nick’’’s throat to prevent him breathing. On another occasion at the same location, MR PROCTOR sexually assaulted “Nick” before producing a pen-knife and threatening to cut “Nick’’’s genitals.MR PROCTOR was prevented from doing so by the other male present.
1979-1984 – residential address in central London.”Nick” was taken to the venue. MR PROCTOR was present with one other male. MR PROCTOR forced “Nick” to perform oral sex on him before beating him with punches.
1978-1984 – numerous locations including Carlton Club,Dolphin Square and a central London townhouse. “Nick” described attending several ‘Christmas parties’ where other boys were present together with numerous males including MR PROCTOR. “Nick” was given whiskey to drink before being forced to perform oral sex on several men including MR PROCTOR.
MR PROCTOR will be interviewed about the matters described above and given the opportunity to provide an account.”
10. I denied all and each of the allegations in turn and in detail and categorised them as false and untrue and, in whole, an heinous calumny. They amount to just about the worst allegations anyone can make against another person including, as they do, multiple murder of children, their torture, grievous bodily harm, rape and sexual child abuse.
11. I am completely innocent of all these allegations.
12. I am an homosexual. I am not a murderer. I am not a paedophile or pederast. Let me be frank, I pleaded guilty to four charges of gross indecency in 1987 relating to the then age of consent for homosexual activity. Those offences are no longer offences as the age of consent has dropped from 21 to 18 to 16. What I am being accused of now is a million miles away from that consensual activity.
13. At the start of the interview, I was told that although the interview would be recorded by the Police both for vision and sound, I would not receive a copy of the tapes. I asked to record the interview for sound myself but my request was refused. During the interview, to ensure that “Nick” had not identified the wrong person, I asked if I could see photographs purporting to be me which had been shown to him. My request was refused. At the end of the interview I was asked if I knew my 8 alleged co conspirators whose homes it was alleged I had visited. I believe I have a good recollection and the list comprised a number of people I knew, some who I had heard of but not met and some I did not know. None of the allegations were alleged to have taken place at my home and I have not visited the homes of any of the “gang”.
14. The list included the names of the late Leon Brittan and the late Edward Heath.
15. If it was not so serious, it would be laughable.
16. Edward Heath sacked me from the Conservative Party’s parliamentary candidates’ list in 1974. Mrs Thatcher restored me to the list 18 months later. Edward Heath despised me and he disliked my views particularly on limiting immigration from the New Commonwealth and Pakistan and my opposition to our entry into and continued membership of what is now know as the E.U. ; I opposed his corporate statist views on the Economy. I despised him too… He had sacked the late Enoch Powell, my political “hero” from the Shadow Cabinet when I was Chairman of the University of York Conservative Association. I regarded Enoch as an intellectual giant in comparison with Heath.
17. The same Edward Heath, not surprisingly, would never speak to me in the House of Commons but would snort at me as he passed me by in a Commons corridor. The feeling was entirely mutual.
18. Now I am accused of doing some of these dreadful things in his London house as well; a house to which I was never invited and to which Heath would never have invited me and to which I would have declined his invitation.
19. The same Edward Heath’s home with CCTV, housekeeper, private secretary, chauffeur, police and private detectives – all the trappings of a former Prime Minister – in the security conscious days of the IRA’s assault on London.
20. It is so farfetched as to be unbelievable. It is unbelievable because it is not true. My situation has transformed from Kafka- esque bewilderment to black farce incredulity.
21. I have nothing to hide and nothing to fear. I appeal to any witness who truthfully can place me at any of the former homes of Edward Heath or Leon Brittan at any time to come forward now. I appeal to any witness who can truthfully say I committed any of these horrible crimes to come forward now.
22. The “gang” is also alleged to have included Lord Janner ( a former Labour M.P.), Lord Bramall (Former Chief of the General Staff) , the late Maurice Oldfield (Former Head of Secret Intelligence Service – MI6), the late Sir Michael Hanley ( Director General of the Internal Security Service – MI5), General Sir Hugh Beach (Master-General of the Ordnance) and a man named – Ray Beech. I did not move in such circles. As an ex Secondary Modern School boy from Yorkshire, I was not a part of the Establishment. I had no interest being part of it. I cannot believe that these other 8 people conspired to do these monstrous things. I certainly did not.
23. Yesterday I was interviewed again by the Metropolitan Police Murder Squad for 1 hour 40 minutes. It was a voluntary interview. I was free to go at any time. I was not arrested. I am not on bail. Unhelpfully, the second disclosure document was given to me some 20 minutes after yesterday’s interview was supposed to have started rather than last Friday as had been promised. My Solicitors were told by the Police it was ready but had to be signed off by superior officers on Friday. The Metropolitan Police are either inefficient or doing it by design. Whatever else, it is inept and an unjust way to treat anyone. During yesterday’s interview, I was shown a photograph of “Nick” aged about 12. I did not recognise him. I was shown computer generated e fit images of 2 of the alleged murder victims created by “Nick”. They looked remarkably similar to each other but one with blonde hair and one dark brown. I did not recognise either image. I was asked if I knew Jimmy Saville. I told them I did not. “Nick” alleges – surprise surprise – that Saville attended the sex “parties”. I was asked if I knew a number of people including Leslie Goddard and Peter Heyman. I did not these two. I was asked if I knew well, a doctor – unnamed. Apparently “Nick” alleges the doctor was a friend of mine and allegedly he turned up to repair the damage done to the boys when they were abused at these “parties”. I could not help there . I was asked if I could recognise images of the pen knife mentioned earlier. It was suggested it was Edward Heath who persuaded me not to castrate “Nick” with it. I was obviously so persuaded by Mr Heath’s intervention that I placed the pen knife in “Nick’s” pocket ready for him to present it to the Metropolitan police over 30 years later as “evidence”. I could not identify the knife. I have never had a pen knife. I was asked if I visited Elm Guest House in Rocks Lane, Barnes. I wondered when that elephant in the room would be mentioned by the Metropolitan police. I am sorry to have to disappoint the fantasists on the internet but I did not visit Elm Guest House. I was unaware of its existence. The so called “guest list” which makes its appearance on the net must be a fake.
24. During my first interview I was told that the Police were investigating to seek out the truth. I reminded them on a number of occasions that their Head of “Operation Midland”, Detective Superintendent Kenny McDonald had said on television some months ago “ I believe what “NICK” is saying as credible and true “. This statement is constantly used and manipulated by Exaro and other Media to justify their position.
25. This remark is very prejudicial to the police inquiry and its outcome. It is not justice and breaches my United Kingdom and Human Rights. This whole catalogue of events has wrecked my life, lost me my job and demolished 28 years of my rehabilitation since 1987.
26. The Police involved in “Operation Midland” are in a cleft stick of their own making. They are in a quandary. Support the “victim” however ludicrous his allegations or own up that they got it disastrously wrong but risk the charge of a cover up. What do I think should happen now?
Either:-
I should be arrested, charged and prosecuted for murder and these awful crimes immediately so I can start the process of ridiculing these preposterous allegations in open court
Or
“NICK” should be stripped of his anonymity and prosecuted for wasting police time and money, making the most foul of false allegations and seeking to pervert the course of justice. Those who have aided and abetted him should also be prosecuted. “NICK” should be medically examined to ensure he is of sound mind.
27. Detective Superintendent Kenny McDonald should resign from his position as Head of “Operation Midland”. He should resign or be sacked. But as the Metropolitan Police is a bureaucratic “organisation” I suggest, to save face, he is slid sideways to be placed in control of Metropolitan London parking, traffic, jay walking or crime prevention. He too should be medically examined to ensure he is of sound mind.
28. An investigation should be launched into “Operation Midland” and its costs. Detectives’ expense claims should be analysed and a full audit carried out by independent auditors.
29. Those Labour Members of Parliament who have misused parliamentary privilege and their special position on these matters should apologise. They have behaved disgracefully, especially attacking dead parliamentarians who cannot defend themselves and others and they should make amends. They are welcome to sue me for libel. In particular, Mr Tom Watson, M.P. should state, outside the protection of the House of Commons, the names of ex Ministers and ex M.P.s who he feels are part of the so called alleged Westminster rent boy ring.
30. Lady Goddard’s Inquiry should examine “Operation Midland’s” methods so as to sift genuine historical child sexual abuse from the spurious.
31. “Operation Midland” should be wound up by the Metropolitan Police Commissioner who should also apologise at the earliest opportunity. On the 6th August 2015, Sir Bernard Hogan-Howe shed crocodile tears criticising the Independent Police Complaints Commission and Wiltshire Police for naming Edward Heath as a suspect. He said it was not “fair” and his own force would not do such a thing. This is very disingenuous. When his Police officers were searching my Home and before they had left, the Press were ringing me asking for comment. I was identified. They had told “Nick” of the search who passed on the information to his press friends. The Metropolitan police have also told the press that they were investigating Heath and Brittan and others. Sir Bernard should resign for the sin of hypocrisy. If he does not, it will not be long before he establishes “Operation Plantagenet” to determine Richard III’s involvement in the murder of the Princes in the Tower of London.
32. Superintendent Sean Memory of Wiltshire Police should explain why he made a statement about Edward Heath in front of his former home in Salisbury and who advised him to select that venue. He should also resign.
33. Leon Brittan was driven to his death by police action. They already knew for 6 months before his death, on the advice of the DPP, that he would not face prosecution for the alleged rape of a young woman. But they did not tell him. They just hoped he would die without having to tell him. The Superintendent in charge of his investigation should resign.
34. The Police should stop referring automatically to people who make statements of alleged Historic child sexual abuse as “victims”. They should refer to them as “complainants” from the French “to lament” which would be more appropriate. Parliament should pass laws to better balance the right to anonymity of “victims” and the “accused”. Parliament should reinstate in law the English tradition of “innocence before being found guilty” which has been trashed in recent months by certain sections of the Police, the DPP, MPs, Magistrates and the Courts themselves.
35. I have not just come here with a complaint. I have come with the intention of showing my face in public as an innocent man. I have come to raise my voice as an aggrieved subject now deeply concerned about the administration of Justice. What has become increasingly clear about Police investigations into historical child sexual abuse is that it has been bungled in years gone by and is being bungled again NOW. The moment has come to ask ourselves if the Police are up to the task of investigating the apparent complexities of such an enquiry ? These allegations merit the most detailed and intellectually rigorous application.
36. What is clear from the last few years of police activity driven by the media, fearful of the power of the internet and the odd M.P. here and there is that the overhaul of the Police service up and down the country is now urgently required. We need “Super cops” who have been University educated and drawn from the professions. Such people could be of semi retirement status with a background in the supervision of complex, criminal investigations. These people could be drawn from the law, accountancy and insolvency practices. Former Justices of the Peace could chair some of these investigations. Adequate incentives should be provided to recruit them.
37. I speak for myself and, as a former Tory M.P. with an impeccable record in defending the Police, I have now come to believe that that blind trust in them was totally misplaced. What has happened to me could happen to anyone. It could happen to you.
38. In summary, the paranoid Police have pursued an homosexual witch hunt on this issue egged on by a motley crew of certain sections of the media and press and a number of Labour Members of Parliament and a ragbag of internet fantasists. There are questions to ask about what kind of Police Force do we have in Britain today. How can it be right for the Police to act in consort with the press with routine tip offs of House raids, impending arrests and the like. Anonymity is given to anyone prepared to make untruthful accusations of child sexual abuse whilst the alleged accused are routinely fingered publicly without any credible evidence first being found. This is not justice. It is an abuse of power and authority.
39. In conclusion, I wish to thank my Solicitors Mr Raza Sakhi and Mr Nabeel Gatrad and my family and friends for their support without which I would not have been able to survive this onslaught on my character and on my life.
I am prepared to take questions.
END
theneedleblog 
Harvey Proctor and others are being used as a smoke screen to deflect from the real pervert/murder squad. Go to my blog: cia and britains secret death squads
Police operation Midland had this info sent to them summer 2015 but do nothing.
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I am in the loop, but where is this stuff that ‘Nick’ published? is it very recent? Or reference(s) to a previously published stuff? (i,e from Ex***news?)
link if possible? please…
Proctor lived in and attended school in Scarborough where he was a controlling school prefect. Given the number of serious allegations of abuse made against others with strong connections in the East/North Yorkshire area (Brittan, Savile, Jaconelli), it is pretty obvious that Proctor should be investigated given his proclivities for under-age boys. Proctor generates far too much smoke for there to be no fire.
What proclivities for young boys would those be?
Are you referring to the 19-year-old man he was convicted of sleeping with, who was deemed underage only by an archaic and bigoted law that no longer exists because there was considered to be no public interest in enforcing it?
Harvey may have committed Contempt of Court by naming Janner, as there is a case ongoing right now in court where Lord Janner is being effectively tried on allegations of child abuse. I wouldn’t be surprised if Plod go after him for Contempt as revenge.
Anyone replicating that part of his speech could also be committing Contempt.
You’re correct and I accept that.
But maybe anyone looking at this should also look at what ‘Nick’ has published with regards this and ask themselves what that means
People keep talking about ‘Nick’ publishing stuff but I’m a bit out of the loop. Where?
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Reblogged this on TIME TO START CARING and commented:
Í agree if the police have evidence they should arrest and charge Proctor so he can get a fair trial, being tried on social media is wrong and has to stop.
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Dismayed but unsurprised at the comments here offering a more verbose version of the “well he would say that, wouldn’t he.”
I don’t trust Proctor one bit but like Bishop Brightly above I find these specific allegations…well… unbelievable.
Reject them then.
ps im no fan of mr proctor and still dislike him as much as i did when he was an mp but attempting to establish the truth of the situation is more important than political or personal opinions of those involved.
Dpack, please see my comments in the thread on Sir Hugh Beach.
so basically this is all based on the word of one person.
Yes, Harvey Proctor.
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The correct place for the allegations to be tested is not a press conference in a swanky London hotel, nor on the pages of the newspapers, nor on the internet, nor on television or radio stations.
It should be done coolly, dispassionately, without fear or favour, affection or ill-will by a jury, on the evidence presented in a courtroom and nothing more than that.
The “event” yesterday appeared to be nothing more than a rant. If Proctor felt that he had not been dealt with professionally by the Police then the Met have a professional standards department (as all Police forces do) and there is the option of referral to the IPCC. I can understand feeling angry if you are innocent. But having a go at the Police for doing their jobs and suggesting that senior officers should be “medically examined” is completely over the top.
Investigations into CSA are also not “homosexual witch-hunts”. The vast majority of gay people, like heterosexuals and bisexuals abhor CSA in all forms. We do know however the likes of the odious PIE attached itself to the homosexual agenda in the 1970’s and 80’s in an attempt to push through its warped ideas, in the process damaging gay rights.
We should also consider the suffering of the likes of the Mehotra family. They are not “complainants”, that is the wrong word; they are victims. Mr. Mehotra has never got to see his son grow to a man; to see what he could have achieved. The Mehotras have suffered for 34 years and of course there were allegations of Police cover ups. Like the innocent falsely accused they have suffered a huge injustice, but they’ve handled themselves with quiet dignity. I do hope they will see justice for their son and the perpetrators of that violent wicked crime being held to account.
If Operation Midland enables abusers who have so far evaded capture to be arrested, charged and justice to be done then it will have done a service. The Police should carry on, allow the evidence to lead their investigations and ignore pressure from the likes of Proctor, the Aaronvitchs of this world and Exaro.
Which occurred first? The media reports that Proctor had been interviewed by the police or Proctor’s announcement that he would make a statement? if the former, then this is probably another example of a police officer taking a backhander from the media for leaking a story that should not be in the public domain. If this is the case and Proctor is innocent, I can understand his anger.
I think Harvey Proctor revealed he was or had been interviewed and after revealing at his earlier press conference after the raid that he was insisting on it.
Where the police leak comes into it is that Proctor claimed that the police told “Nick” about the raids and that”Nick” then told his journalist friends ie Exaro who then announced it.
iirc it was the “raid”on his home (on the big estate)that was the first msm mention of an investigation into him and very shortly afterwards he made a short statement as to his innocence in these matters which he has expanded upon since and expanded further at the press conference statement yesterday.
at the time of that “raid”i had a look at the map and it seemed unlikely that the press found out by chance as a few police cars could enter the estate discretely as the entrances are quite isolated and the buildings are in a large private estate not in an area open to public visitors (nor in a busy urban area) at the time of the raid.
tip off would be my conclusion if ,as he stated ,neither he or other inhabitants of the estate informed the press.whether the tip off came from a police officer or from “dark forces”is open to speculation.
So we have the same Cameron line about “bashing homosexuals” *and* the McAlpine Gambit where if any single element is shown to be patently and obviously false then all of the other allegations about other individuals silently evaporate and are to be heard no more.
This operation midland is a total waste of tax payers money
Det kenny MCDONALDS looks the part and is a man on a mission
WHAT IS HIS MOTIVATION?
these boys who where alledgedy abused in 1975 would now be late 50s or dead many gays died in the first wave of HIV/AIDS
DID THEY INFECT THEIR ABUSERS??
YES they did infect some abusers, though boys who are now dead from aids, were removed from private circles when diagnosed with hiv and had to move to streets of soho with very risky behaviour whilst there health allowed them to earn money. Unfortunately they had very limited options in life and often had a very short prognosis’s. I hope they all RIP as they had tough unimaginable short lives.
On the balance of probabilities, my instinct is that Harvey Proctor is more likely than not to be guilty of sexually abusing minors beyond what was disclosed in his trial.
Reportedly, Harvey Proctor was close to Tory lobbyist Derek Laud and Laud’s former partner, the ex-MP Michael Brown. Scallywag magazine alleged that Laud and Brown are paedophiles.
Moreover, if memory serves me correctly Chris Fay claims to have been shown about 8 photos of VIPs taken at the Elm Guest House: including one of Harvey Proctor.
Now *IF* Chris Fay is mistaken or a fantasist, isn’t it an odd coincidence that he (Chris Fay) should have ‘just happened’ to single out the very MP that ‘Nick’ also identified, later & independently of Fay?
Take ‘Nick’s’ allegations against Proctor in conjunction with Chris Fay’s allegation AND Scallywag’s information about Proctor’s friends … and a picture starts to build.
Having said all this, I accept that none of it ‘proves’ anything with respect to whether Proctor did or did not sexually abuse children. What we have right now is just one person’s word against another. Proctor may be an innocent victim of mistaken identity, or the victim of an agenda to discredit survivors and derail investigations.
Nevertheless, if I were a police officer, Proctor is definitely someone I would be very interested in interviewing and investigating because of the effect of considering together the allegations of ‘Nick’, Chris Fay, the Mary Moss list of Elm Guest House patrons, and Scallywag.
scallywag data has often turned out to be plausible on a variety of subjects and extremely accurate on others that have been confirmed as true from other sources over the course of time ,although they did make some mistakes or were misdirected at times(the identity of john major’s mistress seems a plausible example of misdirection and iirc ended the publication on paper). overall scallywag data has a high accuracy rate.
fay and moss data seems to be improbable on many subjects and definitely incorrect on others although there may be some truths among it but the provenance and inaccuracies mean that overall it is of little value at best and extremely unhelpful at worst.
exaro data seems accurate on a few inconsequential matters (which although correct seem to be distractions intended to misdirect or be taken as “proof of bone fides” ,it has often been seen to be either wholly inaccurate ,full of impossibilities,improbabilities and misinterpretations which together provide distraction from or discredit true data and/or correct interpretation about the subject or a closely related subject when their version of reality collapses.
overall exaro data might best be assessed with reference to my link above to the snowden document regarding creating illusions and disrupting ones enemies .know them by their works.
MY BAD it seems that among the huge amount of data i have trawled through i get confused or forgetful some times in this case i have mistaken scallywag for a different source of data which is usually accurate
HAVING CHECKED I WOULD NOT SAY SCALLYWAG WAS USUALLY ACCURATE
“Now *IF* Chris Fay is mistaken or a fantasist, isn’t it an odd coincidence that he (Chris Fay) should have ‘just happened’ to single out the very MP that ‘Nick’ also identified, later & independently of Fay?
Take ‘Nick’s’ allegations against Proctor in conjunction with Chris Fay’s allegation AND Scallywag’s information about Proctor’s friends … and a picture starts to build”.
BRILLIANT! Builds a picture alright, but there’s no coincidence. Try this scenario: the “decoded” MM Elm Guest House patrons list wasn’t created by Carol Kasir, but by Fay, Fay’s private detective buddy and Andrea Davison (who IS Scallywag). Convicted document forger Davison forges whatever documents are needed to support the fake list which is of much more recent origin than claimed. And then add Nick, but what makes you think that Nick is “independent” of Fay and Davison? How do you know that he’s not in constant contact with them?
interesting using a mix of true,false and ambiguous all seemingly un related does fit my snowden pattern
NOW I HAVE CORRECTED MY SHABBY MEMORY (see above)and got the right impression re scallywag data(of dubious merit) i recon justin’s scenario above is probably pretty close with the caveat that we have no proof of collusion although the overall effect might indicate that at some level there has been a “master plan”or at the least it could be an exploitation of several factors to create a situation that has had similar outcomes to a pre planned operation with that intent.
either way it seems like another example of smoke and mirrors to me .
Justin – would be interested to hear more on Scallywag and Davidson. Thanks.
Exaro are infuriating. The justice system is not a popularity contest. An accused person’s guilt or innocence cannot be determined by how many twitter followers you have. And frankly, MPs have no more right to “vote” on a person’s guilt or innocence, or on whether or not someone should be prosecuted, than journalists, or schoolchildren, or anyone else who is not involved in the justice system might have. I asked Hencke on his blog awhile ago, if plans for a People’s Independent CSA Investigations Service and a People’s Independent Vigilance Committee were in the works…
I’ve wondered who recruited Nick for his role, and whether he might be getting paid. There are at least two EXTREMELY wealthy persons with a keen interest in the idea of a VIP pedophile ring, it wouldn’t be hard to arrange payments through an obscure flunky. Or perhaps Nick might be acting out of loyalty to a child victim’s family.
But what is really the point? What do “they” want? Have a look at the loons who invaded Hampstead and screamed “stop killing babies” at little old ladies and church vicars. ALL of them claim to have the same goals of child protection and justice for victims of CSA as Exaro. But what do their actions and their statements reveal about their true motivation? They want total populist control over the justice system. They want to be able to “opt out” of obeying laws or legal judgements if they don’t agree with them. They want to be able to “arrest” police, lawyers and judges “for treason” if they don’t agree with their actions or rulings. They want to determine, for themselves and by themselves, who is or is not guilty of CSA – and the want to able to harrass and persecute anyone they believe to be guilty, unimpeded by the “corrupted” laws, legal system, police, judges, etc. Check out HOAXTEAD site if you think I’m making this up. Frankly, I don’t see much difference between a Belinda McKenzie and a Mark Watts.
i found this
http://www.independent.co.uk/arts-entertainment/books/boys-will-be-boys-1617532.html
it had made it to forth place in a google search for the chaps name as it is a book review from 20 years ago with only a passing reference to him or his boyhood boarding school sexual recollections among those of many who contributed to the book.
it seems a little odd that it had such prominence ,considering his long and quite influential military career and central role in nuclear strategy
chance ?,a well placed hint ?or an example of how to try to place data to create an impression?
i favor the latter as most probable .penn and teller are better at illusions than most of the students of this school.
Click to access the-art-of-deception-training-for-a-new.pdf
Reddan, I’m real. Sorry to disappoint.
Jon you’re not fooling anyone
Certainly not fooling me, I know that. I have no idea who you are Reddan but I certainly know *what* you are.
I have not posted on here for a year, but I can not believe the comments on here. No wonder TPTB rule when they have muppets like you.
I have no idea if Nick is telling the truth,but I do know the power of. word smithing, and making points without full context. HP put out this statement. We have no idea what is missing from the facts he choose to highlight, or what he choose to ‘highlight’ to give an impression. He has totally controlled the message and for legal reasons – on going police invetigation – done so knowing others with a understanding of context can not respond.
Based on that we have BB and others claiming it must all be lies. We have Gojam from his lack of comments here and his twiiter comments clearly deciding who he believes too.
No wonder Britain is such a messed up place. Thousand years of rule by a few and still the peasants at the smallest ripple turn. Next you will be sending your children to war, because of some words, with no context, tell ypu so
Hear ! Hear !
Jonathan Aitken’s sword of truth? Harvey was outspoken about the ‘monstrous allegations’ in ’87.
iirc aitkin crops up in the pendry business links ,perhaps at one degree of separation but i cant recall the details.(i will check and let folk know)
a few lines in his prison diary book was my sartori moment as to the significance of the link between 9 and soe when he mentioned fitzroy maclean and neave in one sentence regarding how he missed them telling war stories and giving him advice over lunch in the hoc canteen .
Pleased to see you’ve resurrected Callie, but don’t know why you don’t make the assertions in your own name, they are very valid points :-)
Stardog-“Had that been Proctor’s statement or something akin to it then , I for one, might well have had a wholly different analysis of his current actions. . .”
Your detailed post does a good job of setting out why issues of consent are so important in BDSM communities. But must admit I still don’t see as Proctor as having any obligation, legal or ethical, to set out that type of detail and/or those apologies. Don’t get me wrong, it’s quite possible, even probable, that he was a nasty piece of work in his thirties and forties, but it doesn’t mean that we have to take seriously lurid allegations that he was involved in a murder and child abuse conspiracy with a man like Ted Heath who all available evidence suggests he had little in common with, apart of course from being nominally members of the same political party.
TDF, it surely gives us an insight into the psyche of person who was nominally selected as a “representative of the people”. That is, he didn’t give a flying fig about his constituents and he continually and habitually used his position at Westminster to indulge in his own particular wants and needs without the slightest recourse or consideration of the longer term ramifications of his actions on those he hired, or those communities in a wider sense he belongs to. it further suggests surely that, decades alter his abiding interest is himself and damn any one else?
Surely, even the most inward looking and self absorbed person, should be able to spot that, if they were using the services of then under age male prostitutes and there are current accusations that, some of those self same prostitutes were murdered by his colleagues and or acquaintances, then he was always going to be the focus of some police questioning?
He can’t have it both ways. on the one hand claiming he knew nothing whilst, at the same time, claiming the accusations are ridiculous, How could he possibly know , if he really didn’t know those who stand posthumously accused of wrong doing?
He failed in his duty as an MP, he failed as Dominant to keep his end of the bargain he consciously and with premeditation, entered into and now he’s just whining because he was convicted of a crime that bears some relation to those possible offences under investigation. Offences that any one with half a functioning brain investigating their veracity, would lead you them question Proctor under close scrutiny.
An interesting and thought provoking, bag of shite stance. I remember laying of the bed of one of my abusers and he made me smile as we discussed that you ‘liked them young” and was particularly abusive in how you treated your spanking regime. You are aggressive, you are shameless, you are going to have to face a court. You are alive and compos mentis. Sign.philspetition.uk
as a member of the rag bag i would like to mention that the data i have so far found regarding maurice makes me think he was a decent bloke as spooks go.that it still seems very important to some to continue to discredit him and by doing so conceal why he fell from grace might be very significant to context.
understanding context is vital to understanding the significance of details.if we were to look towards finding a “key”to the truth considering the role of henniker is a good place to start.i dont think there is any evidence (so far)that he “got high on his own supply”but he seems to a major node in the lattice that created the conditions and means for many things. his no degrees of separation from philby and blunt, or to mcgrath/mckeauge and the troubles and then include righton ,napier and pie and then add on the political stage the fall of the one nation left ,right and centre chaps and to the creation and the rise of the monday club with the old soe crew neave courtney maclean amery et al and thatcherism .
ps he was dickie’s protoge and helped get phil the job
pps hayman is also a direct connection
looking at that stuff it seems pointing fingers at harvey seems very much a distraction.
I think we can safely all now forget Nick and perhaps question the standards of exaro news. Nick like fellowes is a fantasist.
Exaro are being ‘played’. Knowingly or not should perhaps be the question.
Do we have any firm evidence that Nick actually exists?
exaro ,umm ,know them by their works (and their antecedents)
pendry is a family name
between them they have had direct business dealings with:
(pendry senior) oysten ,hall et al,(janner?)media,footie northern business stuff
(pendry junior)
exaro.who we know by their works.
the british syrian society,said foundation.
they include the chaps who organized assad senior getting control of syria,henniker’s son in law,steel,and quite a few others who i cant put into context .
(mrs pendry )
corbyn .the highbury vale blackstock trust .
and iirc oysten hall et al ,northern business stuff (as a comp sec?)
im hope those wiser than me can use that data as a starting point to try to add to context
there could be other places to look relating to the pendry family activities but i recon they are spookier than casper.
You forget whatever you like. Until Midland concludes the police have a witness if ‘Nick’ is lying he’ll get the Ben Fellowes treatment and possibly the same verdict. The allegations were always going to be barely credible, MPs, Prime Ministers and elements of the Establishment don’t murder and rape kids, do they ?
Pingback: Harvey Proctor’s Statement Today – and the False Claims about Tom Watson and other MPs | Desiring Progress
His audacity when referring to the need for ‘super cops’ is just breathtaking. What he is essentially saying is that the higher echelons of the police should be made up of establishment figures, with no room for mere commoners that have worked their way up the ranks. Nice one Harvey, if that gets the go ahead I’m sure no one will ever suspect a cover up again. FFS.
Actually, I think he was saying that certain officers have shown a singular lack of judgement, wisdom, common sense and adherence to basic standards of UK justice. And that if this is the best we can do then perhaps we ought to be recruiting senior officers from more robust stock.
Let’s look at how Proctor could have dealt with this…
He could have started by releasing a statement that went something akin to this.
I would like to start by apologising to the wider gay community for my own stupidity and I fully understand that, by abusing my position as an MP and indulging my own sexual whims without thought to the possible wider consequences of my actions. I now understand that, the sating of my own preferences was bou8nd to give succour to those reactionary and bigoted elements within our society who seek to cast the light of suspicion on all gay men with regards to their attitude towards sexual congress with those of tender years. I was a stupid man doing what I did and seeking to then justify it in retrospect.
I would also like to apologise to those in the BDSM community , the vast majority of whom only seek legal and wholly consensual “play” between those over the age of 18. Again, I have given those with closed minds the opportunity to use my mistakes as as tick with which to beat those who act wholly within the law and in full knowledge and understanding of that which they do, is from a freedom of choice.
I now understand that, by hiring and using what are known as rent boys, I was failing totally in my role as a “Dominant” to ensure that , those in my charge were doing so, wholly of their own free will and not through outside pressures, either financial or other. I now fully understand that,my use of these “rent boys” was actually feeding into a serious criminal problem and I now understand that, by allowing my own whims and needs to dictate my morals I failed utterly to ensure my part of the contract in any BDSM scene to “protect and ensure the safety, well being and happiness of any submissive under my charge”.
I make no bones in repeating my sorrow and my own disgust with myself for my letting down, in a most public manner, two communities who have historically, had a hard enough time receiving a “fair deal”, both by the powers that be and the public at large.
I also realise that, in the light of recent events and revelations about the scope and possible extent of child abuse in our society that, my own position has been thrown into sharp relief. In the final analysis, I was using the illegal services of then under age prostitutes and as such, what I might know or not know about the various accusation, currently under investigation, has to be seen in that light.
This I can say without doubt In my dealings with these people, At no time did i hear from them individually, or any of those I hired these people from stories about “Dolphin Square” or some organised ring of paedophiles acting at the highest levels. That is not to say that there was nothing to these tales, merely that, I was never made aware of them and have direct or indirect knowledge of them. Furthermore, I had no knowledge of the Elm Tree Guest house or the activities it would seem were happening there.
Maybe, it was because my dealing with these people were purely based on a fiscal level that I was never taken into those i hired confidence. Looking back again, I realise that, I was failing in my role of a Dominant by not ascertaining as to the wider safety and health of those whose services I paid for. Maybe, had I shown a more open attitude past just seeking to indulge my own needs , I might well have been party to details that might be able help the current investigations. As it is that is a moot point and I feel I have learned a salutary and humbling lesson from my experiences.
My whole actions were in isolation and I can quite unequivocally say, I knew nothing then or now, or any rumours or stories of child abuse let alone the murder of young people for sexual gratification by those I both served with as an MP or might have had contact for reasons of “state security”. I fully understand how, those in the wider community might fail to see the difference between someone who pays to “beat” young men and someone who seeks to deprive those same sorts of young men of their lives in a terminal manner. However, I assure you there is a strict sic set of rules that one as a Dominant agrees to adhere to.and that, “punishment” is never, under any circumstances, taken past the level where a submissive uses their agreed “safe word”. I accept this may well mean nothing to many of those in the wider community however, those involved in the BDSM lifestyle understand the gravity and deep meaning of any contract between Dominant and submissive even if, that contract is only of a fiscal nature.
I understand fully that, I have created a rod for my own back by my actions in the 1980s and that, my current situation is as a direct result of my dalliances and selfish stupidity when younger. That said, i would seek through this statement and my lawyers to make it plain that. I was never involved in what could be characterised as the “genuine abuse” of those unable to make a decision as to whether they should have a choice about their participation in said activities. Neither was i aware that, any of my colleagues, friends , fellow MPs or other members of the establishment were themselves, indulging in such abuse.
I am quite happy to talk to any police about my activities and furthermore attempt to furnish the names of those I was a client of, in order to clear my name of the current accusations. . i have also provided full and frank details, such that I can remember, of those, who were responsible for the “upkeep” of those I hired
Again, I can only end by apologising to those I have besmirched by my own wanton and unthinking activities whilst an MP. I wouldn ow politely ask that, my privacy as a private citizen now be given due respect as I attempt to negotiate this difficult time in my life and clear myself of any accusations that might remain.
Had that been Proctor’s statement or something akin to it then , I for one, might well have had a wholly different analysis of his current actions. . .
No he isn’t saying that but you’re obviously determined to misinterpret his words as meaning support for an established elite. Such simplistic thinking doesn’t help the true victims who have been no better served by citizen journalists and populist activists than they might be by those with a more rigorous approach to evidence. That education has sometimes been the preserve of an elite doesn’t mean all educated people are elitists.
Reblogged this on L8in.
StarDoG23-
“In short, you have singularly failed to deny that you are a homo sexual sado masochist ,who revels on the role of a “top” and prefers the company of younger men.”
Even if true, so what?
Well put. Assuming all involved are over the age of consent & willingly participate, these are perfectly legal
Personally , I couldn’t give a rat’s ass about his sexual peccadilloes however, we have here someone acting a with utter surprise that they have been named in some criminal investigation when it was widely rumoured he regularly used, then under age, rent boys as the butt, sic of his pleasure. I make no comment about his open admission he broke the law as it was by indulging in sexual union with then under age boys as personally, I think it was wholly unfair that the law was so framed at the expense of those of the male only, gay community. However, it is a prefect illustration of the man’s attitude that he “was above and knew better than the law” that , as a serving MP, he chose to flout the then rule of law.
To put it succinctly Proctor is a whining little never quite been who , by his own crass arrogance and stupidity whilst serving as an MP, has brought this on himself and in the final analysis, only has himself to blame for being sold down the line, by those further up the chain.
Personally, if I’d paid for illegal services from then under age and therefore illegal prostitutes, I’d be a tad less cantankerous and mouthy about any situation I might find myself in, years down the line.
You make some fair points on his integrity.
I guess what I’m trying to fathom is who is actually drawing him into this and to what ends? As another poster has already commented, Proctor does not seem to be aware of the possibility he is being used in a much bigger game.
In other words, he was asking for it because of his sexual preference. As he said, it’s a gay witch hunt.
@anna, You are kidding ? The Northern Grooming scandal was ignored by the police for over a decade because of concerns over ‘demonizing’ Asians.
A Labour peer who could probably be guessed at had allegations against him ignored for 1/4 century mustn’t demonize ‘jews’ or ‘gays’. The shit hits the fan decades later and the original police reluctance to act becomes understandable it’s all a gay/anti-Semitic/anti-black/anti-muslim/anti-green/anti-labour/anti-conservative/anti-libdem witch hunt.
Life would be so much simpler and safer if all child molesters were white heterosexual atheist apolitical men, we’d have the bastards nicked and banged up as they should be.
So he’s a pervert.
What worries me is that there is probably no better way to discredit all establishment/political CSA claims than to concoct one which is so fanciful as to be beyond belief.
I’m no fan of Proctor but his statement today sheds a fascinating light on what the Police are currently investigating as credible allegations. He has a right to be treated fairly in the eyes of the law and either arrested or cleared. He is challenging them to arrest him and my bet is that they won’t.
I draw no conclusions and am trying hard to keep an open mind.
We are now asked to believe or discredit a claim that Proctor, an Ex PM a serving Home Secretary, heads of 5, 6 and senior military staff murdered three boys in the presence of another who was allowed to go free as a witness to it all. Nick pops up now as investigations flounder (and the reasons for the floundering are unclear).
Most, if not all of the accused, were heavily guarded and Heath/Brittan were instantly recognisable. Proctor is an easy target and the rest, except a military one, are all dead.
The Plod enjoy big catches but are not making any. I worked as part of a retail security team for a short while and we caught a local celebrity & a solicitor shoplifting. They loved it.
If this all falls through as a hoax, all similar and lesser claims will be treated with a massive amount of scepticism.
We should nevertheless keep an open mind. I’m just worried the Police et all may be selling us a massive dummy in order to keep a lid on what actually happened between the narrow lines.
The accusations, when seen in full detail, are utterly ridiculous. Even those of who already doubted Nick’s veracity are stunned by them.
One does then wonder why the Police have made it clear the claims are ‘credible’ & made a statement outside Heath’s house appealing for those he abused to come forward.
Lob in Jimmy Saville and we have the perfect circus.
How noble of Heath to step in before the bollocks were cut off.
I’m now tending towards the view that this whole gambit is aimed at discrediting all future & existing establishment CSA claims.
Why’s that?
Reblogged this on Desiring Progress and commented:
Here is the full statement made today by Harvey Proctor in response to the offences about which he has been questioned by Operation Midland. I will be blogging later about some of the claims he makes about MPs and Parliamentary Privilege.
i recon most of that is probably true,there may be a few bits where he might be mistaken but his comments regarding the origin of the relevant allegations against him is extremely important to take into account.
he seems unaware (or is avoiding the concept)that his situation ie an innocent being blamed and then exonerated could be seen as part of a smoke and mirrors operation to conceal the truth of both dark deeds and those who use knowledge of those deeds to control the doers of those deeds.his presentation of his situation as a “gay witch hunt”is really missing the point ,some he defends are on my “dubious list” some who are on the “suspect list”he gives should be there some are probably innocent .
overall his information has only added a little to the data or understanding of the data and in many ways he seems to have played into the hands of those who put him in this position.
a couple of second thoughts include
perhaps you should consider enoch’s interpretation of some moiders
and that some of the “rag bag” actually have thought you have been used as a patsy by “dark forces”for quite a while.
perhaps some of the “rag bag”are in a position to inform you further as to who has caused your discomfort in these matters and why they have done so.
if you are reading this mr p please ask and i for one will try to add to your knowledge,having been treated appallingly by those allied to old friends (and enemies)it might be time to seek friends in new places.
No Harvey, this could not happen to “just anyone” as most people, of either sex do not have your reputation for enjoying certain activities, activities that leave an politician open to blackmail and threats of exposure to the public. on the other hand, do I believe that the current bunch of yahoos would happily drag some old politico “fruit”, who owes them a favour, out of the cupboard with a “false trail” designed to deflect from the real perpetrators? Why yes I would and full marks for the classic obfuscation tactic of sticking up for two dead people one, almost certainly innocent, one almost certainly guilty of sexual crimes.
What you totally fail to deal with is simple Harvey, to deny that your sexual proclivities are as written and rumoured about for decades. In short, you have singularly failed to deny that you are a homo sexual sado masochist ,who revels on the role of a “top” and prefers the company of younger men.
“No Harvey, this could not happen to “just anyone” as most people, of either sex do not have your reputation for enjoying certain activities, activities that leave an politician open to blackmail and threats of exposure to the public”.
But Edward Heath, Leon Brittan and the retired General don’t have Proctor’s reputation – outside of internet & pre-internet slander-gossip – and they are “co-accuseds” apparently. What did they do that makes you believe they are not the “anyone” Proctor is talking about?
By the way, did you watch the interview with Iain Dale (sp?) -? A 19 year old was paid by a British sleazepaper to set Proctor up, wearing a wire, and was recorded lying about his age to Proctor! Proctor was set up & taken out by UK scum-press, because they perceived him to be a pervert and were outraged that a pervert was a sitting member of parliament.
If you think Proctor was “taken out” as you put it, by the press alone then you are incredibly naive. His activities were so well known and he was so arrogant about it all the chances are that, his own side had had enough and simply gave up on him and let him be dealt with to calm stormy waters elsewhere.
Like others here have stated, I do not personally believe Proctor was responsible for the abuse of “kids”. . On the other hand and given his total allegiance to the Thatcherite cant of “There’s no such thing as society and it’s everyone for themselves”, I firmly believe the man is a complete and utter tool who only has himself to blame for his present situation.
As for the accusation of “entrapment”. Well duh!!!!!! How criminally stupid would it have been to to have risked someone who was then legally “underage”?
He IS a pervert. He gets sexually aroused by hurting people.
Firstly, rumours are not facts. Evidence is needed in order to convict someone.
Secondly, There are plenty of people gay and straight, male or female, who are into BDSM. That doesn’t mean that they all seek unwilling partners. BDSM is overwhelmingly consensual although I will concede that there are psychopaths who will abuse an unwilling victim.
Mr Proctor is right. If they have any evidence he has committed any crime they should charge him with an offence.
Looking at the press reports from the time of his conviction in the late 80s, the kind of things that he was doing don’t sound anything like they’re in the same league as the allegations currently made against him.
He was hiring rent boys (aged 17-21), dressing up like a headmaster, and spanking them when they got the answers to questions from Trivial Pursuit wrong. It’s a bit seedy, and fairly silly. But to suggest that his (widely-publicised, long before these allegations were made) predilection for “naughty schoolboy” games with young men is in any way probative of allegations that he battered, stabbed, raped and murdered several small boys is absurd.
Putting aside your obvious homophobia, how does that make him guilty of murder or the accuser in any way credible.
The accusations are a ragbag of fantasist nonsense with no evidence to back them up and much about them to make them incredible.
Sex parties in the Carlton!
Totally and utterly absurd!