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Heartened to read reference to this surreal situation here. [Things just haven’t been the same since I took that red pill.]
From the article:
‘It’d be nice if this article and the policy behind it were a one-off. We all know it isn’t. The “normalising of the unthinkable” is the prevailing campaign in western media. Nazis are being divested of their untouchable status and repackaged as freedom fighters. Our governments are sending US and UK troops to train these Hitler-worshippers to kill their fellow Ukrainians.
And the Guardian, flagship of the liberal left, has nothing to say about that at all.’
….flagship of something else, it would appear.
The MSM coverage of Ukraine has been shocking. In the same way I found this blog… I smelt a rat. And it stinks.
I never thought I would say this but RT depicts a more accurate version of events – and that is the Kremlin mouthpiece FFS. Almost all of the reporting we receive comes from the Kiev front or from Kiev directly.
Once again “we” pick the wrong side – distinct from picking the “right” side but the facts remain.
I think RT just depicts a different version of events and the ‘truth’ lies somewhere in between.
IMO the country should have been split into two, east and west as trying to keep Ukraine together when it is politically divided along geographical lines and virtually 50/50 by population is just daft but both external agents (EU/Russia) have been playing a ‘winner takes all’ game for the last 20 years until the internal situation in Ukraine became ungovernable.
The west was wrong to insist on a united Ukraine. There could have been two ‘independent’ countries. Now Russia has annexed Crimea and any two state solution that inevitably emerges will be polarised.
I still maintain that the military intervention in Georgia and Ukraine is potentially the biggest threat to European and World security and that Putin is a maniac but I’m not blind to the faults of the ‘west’ either.
What astonishes me is that too many online equate an ‘Alternative’ media view paid by Russian propagandists with the truth.
Exactly. I hope that NovoRussia could be an independent state – a gap between East and West. Obviously with stronger trading links with Russia. We’ll see.
What the problem is for the West is that time and time again they have agreed with Putin not to do something, for example, bombing Libya, then done the opposite. All of the diplomatic cards haven’t just been played, they’ve been swept off the table!
My opinion is that Ukraine was destablised by the west. An elected (if corrupt and nasty) government kicked out in a revolution by nationalist thugs who describe the Russian speaking people as “cockroaches”. That is the language of genocide. And John McCain on Kiev supporting the Maiden protests!!! I saw him on telly saying “When I saw Pudin (that’s my attempt at invoking his accent) I saw three letters: K.G.B”. – Did he see C.I.A when he looked at George HW Bush??
I think what we can take from this is whatever your views on a regime, revolution is not the answer. Violence begets violence and all that. I think Camus said that instead of revolting, one should rebel.
Both sides destabilised Ukraine and have done so for 20 years, rigged elections and puppet premiers and the longer it went on the more corrupt and undemocratic the measures both sides used to seize control.
The country is divided politically 50/50 but the majority aren’t politically extreme on either side. The majority of pro-west Ukrainians aren’t nazis and don’t call Russian speakers cockroaches just as the majority of Russian speakers didn’t think everyone in the west were nazis (a stereotype resurected from WW2 and perpetuated by the Kremlin.
But civil war polarises opinion.
Do not underestimate the Russian psychology. Liberal Britons are the worst at self-flagellation but it is Russia that is and has been the most prolific ‘Imperial’ power. From the 15th century onward that Empire has ebbed and flowed, back and forth.
Russian history lauds the strong Empire builders like Ivan the Terrible, Peter the Great, Catherine the Great, and Stalin and disdains the weak like Tsar Nicholas and Yeltsin and Putin knows this. What we call modern Russia is a consolidated Empire and all Russians eye with nostalgia the high water marks on it’s western border where once the Empire has touched. Lithuania, Latvia, Estonia, Poland. When Russia claims a ‘sphere of influence’ it really means an area it believes it has a right to dominate.
Those who are apologists for Russian military aggression, the appeasers, are really just accepting that Russia has a right to dominate these countries and that peoples on its western borders do not have the same rights of self determination that they themselves have. I supposed sitting at a computer 3 thousand miles away with no understanding of the historical atrocities committed by the Russians over 500 years, it is easy to take such a view as it has no immediate or pressing consequences from such a distance.
Mmm. My line on Russia’s intervention is; “what did you expect?”
We have a bizarre situation whereby we can have headlines such as “Canadian jets intercept Russian bomber over Lithuania” and so the war drums are banged.
There is also a completely incredulous belief that Putin wants to restore the soviet satellite states. He has more in common with the White Russians and is essentially a monarch, imo.
“What did you expect?” In other words Russian aggression and expansion is expected ?
Lithuania is an independent country. Russian bombers shouldn’t be in it’s airspace. This is the looking glass world we live in, where a bomber from another country can fly over another’s territory without permission and if it is intercepted it is the interception that is the aggression? To have that view there must be the supposition that Russian military aircraft are exempt from international law.
I don’t find Russian ambition incredulous. Ignoring 500 years of history would be naive.
“It could never happen today.” is the ‘educated’ retort that echoes down the centuries from the lips of those just before they were proven wrong. Today’s today is tomorrow’s history and history is chock-a-block with ambitious men who didn’t know their limits and when to stop.
White Russians, red Russians. Forget politics. They are all Tsars by different names, working within different political frameworks in different eras.
By expectation I am taking a pragmatic view not a moral view. So yeah, basically! Of course I don’t condone it – I don’t tie my colours to any mast.
A bordering county and an important naval port – it was bound to happen especially given the prior history, Georgia etc.
As for the Lithuania comment – Russian bombers over Lithuania is certainly aggressive and for the same reason I’d say that Canadian planes in Lithuania is passive aggressive. I have little good things to say about NATO. The posturing and “war games” practiced by generals (on both sides) is what you would probably term a “dirty risk” and I fear the ramifications! Certainly those making the decisions have bunkers with very thick walls. I do not.
As for last para I was not referring to spheres of influence (although I find it unlikely that Putin would go after say, Poland) but rather comments made by Ukrainian PM. I just don’t think that any links to Putin and the Soviet Union really make sense. First and foremost Putin is a nationalist. He doesn’t want a restoration of the Soviet Union (in my opinion god knows I don’t know the man) but rather his idea of a “great Russia” – perhaps best illustrated by the resurgence of christian orthodoxy. You could say I’m splitting hairs – you’d probably be correct!
And without going into my political beliefs (short version: don’t vote won’t vote) I would agree with your last paragraph – across the board.
No, I won’t vote either.
“If you don’t vote you can’t complain”
“why don’t you move to Somalia then??”
Give me strength!!
If you vote you can complain albeit to absolutely no effect a situation that you will share with all the non voters.
Whatever party you vote for and regardless of the way the rest of the electorate votes you will be presented with a government comprising of one or more neo- liberal laiissez faire global capitalists.
They will renege on any promise that was designed to elicit your vote and they will advance policies that had you been forewarned would have resulted in you withholding your vote.
You may of course make your complaints known in due course.
The only difference I see is that if you do vote you have supported the system and therefore helped to perpetuate it. Therefore it is hard to see how voters can complain about a system they’ve supported.
I do not demur old chap.
Don’t want to make too much of the East vs West slog but if we are considering the past 500 years of empire building, then the ‘sea powers’ are surely in a league of their very own. Those vast horizons, the allure and riches of adventuring, the trade between continents, the insane banking system developed in The City of London; these are the reasons that the Anglo-American Empire today encircles the world with corporations, banks, military bases and surveillance networks- and still wants it all.
Ukraine is just another case of destabilisation, deception and the fomenting of profit driven warfare. Putin might be a raving nationalist, but context seems to be everything here; 28 million deaths at the hands of a reich fueled by Wall Street and London elites, that is still in living memory.
If this escalation keeps on escalating, it will be the end one way or another, either the end of this expansive insanity, or the ‘one-big-one’.
I’d say that is a not unreasonable summary.
Although a reich fuelled by Wall Street and London elites seems somewhat tenuous !
The Wall Street and London elites joined forces with their supposed arch enemies the Communist Soviet Union against the aforementioned Reich, did they not?
The Soviets accounted for the best part of 100 million.
I don’t think it is as simple as you or I have said. Hitler kept a portrait of Henry Ford on his wall as a reminder of his initial ‘leg up’ into the political arena from the archetypal American capitalist. During the 30’s, the Nazi machine was the darling of investors on both sides of the Atlantic; Prescott Bush bankrolled them; ITT made their planes; Ford made their trucks; Standard Oil shared their technology; IBM ran their boo keeping; the Bank of England helped out with their finances. (And that is before we start on European royalty!).
Hitler was Time Magazine man of the year. It’s hard to accept, but the economic miracle and re-armament of the Third Reich was largely a creation of US corporations and London/ Wall Street finance.
This is documented in many places (I recommend academic historians such as Anthony Sutton, Guido Preparata; or Rob Newman’s ‘History of Oil’). National Socialism was seen as a bulwark against Soviet Communism, and some allege that ‘the sea powers’ were (and have always been) anxious to prevent an alliance of Europe with Eurasia and Russia.
Divide and rule.
I don’t see us (UK) as one country, branches of the elites sometimes have truly treasonous intent.
Agreed that it’s more complicated than either of us have indicated, that has always been the case and always will be.
Given the transition from hyper inflation, starvation, civil unrest and national humiliation as punishment for having the audacity to play the same imperialist game as the victors of WW1, it’s no wonder that the global Banksters and merchants decided to get in quick on what they saw as a prospect for the portfolio.
Why wouldn’t Hitler be Man of The Year given the achievements to date?
Time Magazine didn’t have a crystal ball did they?
The Banksters and industrialists realised that the Reich intended that said Bankers were earmarked as the servants rather than the masters, Stalin’s appeal was recognised.
You forgot to mention Sutton’s Wall Street and the Bolshevik Revolution,
Intrigue and interference is universal.
‘Time Magazine didn’t have a crystal ball did they?’
I guess that argument can be made with regard to the death camps, although it seems clear now that the power elite in the US knew (in 1938) that they had been funding a huge war machine- with the quite obvious consequences/intention of fomenting industrial scale war, and that they’d been supporting a raving anti-Semitic death cult that had perverted German society, in short that Hitler and the Reich were psychotic. As Time was (and is) an organ of those elites to disseminate propaganda to the masses, I think that other metaphors of the use of magical tools come to my mind.
Some people (Greenwald, Pilger) recently ask if the US’s repeated support of ‘the wrong people’ is some kind of ‘bug’ in the system; a ‘mistake’ that keeps happening. To me that reads like a journalistic escape route from the facts; facts that point to something much more determined. (“Once is happenstance. Twice is coincidence. Three times is enemy action”).
And yes, I agree that Stalin’s Russia is the other half of this; this is Preparata’s hypothesis -that the war was essentially between two regimes, funded and manipulated by third parties who came and picked up the spoils at the end.
Broadly agree. The ancien regime comes up with strategic gems such as the “Strategy of tension” for example.
Iran and Iraq received variable support from the West in order to keep that war bubbling along for as long as possible.
Sutton argued in one of his books that the Soviets benefitted from a deliberate policy of technology transfer in order to keep the Cold War on the boil to profitable effect.
Pilger covers the subjects you mentioned, Chomsky’s “Manufacturing Consent” is worth a read.
The Nazi “1488” symbolism was disturbing to see on the photo of the military vehicle in the Guardian’s report. However, isn’t the Putin regime also like the Nazis in its persecution and discriminatory laws against LGBT people. Plus by having political and business opponents imprisoned and/or bumped off isn’t Putin also behaving like some 1920s Chicago gangster boss?
Some of the analysis is truly shocking.
We’ve had religion, astrology and now a variation of numerology !
Want a Pavlovian response, use a number, use combinations of 14 and 88 to get to the intended conclusion without considering history, economics, geography and regional politics.
Fortune cookie foreign policy!
@Sabre: As a Nazi yourself, one might have thought you would have know what 1488 stands for in your own ideological guff already!
14 stands for the 14 words, “We must secure the existence of our people and a future for white children.” A phrase coined by David Lane, not George Rockwell, who instead started the term white power. 88 Can refer to HH, Heil Hitler, or to another of David Lane’s works the 88 precepts.
Tut, tut Sabre, very sub-standard analysis indeed – what would your Fuhrer have though, eh?;)
Sabre’s not a nazi.
I was aware that H was the eighth letter of the alphabet your kind assistance notwithstanding.
US Foreign Policy, which receives considerable input from the howling lobby (AIPAC) during its formation, was content to organise and fund a coup against the elected government of the Ukraine using a motley bunch of available players. A very small group of ” neo nazis” being designated one of the useful idiots to be used, calculated to draw an over reaction from the Russians ( The Russians didn’t bite) .
At least one neo nazi leader believed himself to be a major player in the game, he ended up shot to death in the street at the feet of the police who shot the handcuffed Mr Big ( self defence/ escape attempt).
These Geopolitical intrigues inevitably lead to improbable bedfellows of temporary convenience.
Becky perhaps you would like to consider this article http://www.counterpunch.org/2014/02/24/zionism-in-the-age-of-the-dictators/
To quote the famous Nazi physicist Albert Einstein in a letter to The New York Times 4th December 1948
…“Among the most disturbing political phenomena of our time is the emergence in the newly created state of Israel of the ‘Freedom Party’ (Tnuat HaHerut), a political party closely akin in its organization, methods, political philosophy and social appeal to the Nazi and Fascist parties….They have preached an admixture of ultranationalism, religious mysticism and racial superiority… it is imperative that the truth about Mr Begin and his movement be made known in this country.” …
I note your implied distaste for ” The fourteen words”.
I posted a link to a Counter Punch article for your edification a perusal of which will lead you to
” … Indeed the Stern Gang weren’t the only Zionist collaborators. On June 21, 1933 the Zionistische Vereinigung fur Deutschland, the German Zionist Federation, appealed to the Nazis:
“May we therefore be permitted to present our views, which, in our opinion, make possible a solution in keeping with the principles of the new German State of National Awakening…. because we, too, are against mixed marriage and are for maintaining the purity of the Jewish group…”
Do you condemn both?, endorse both?, Condemn the former whilst endorsing the latter?, endorse the former whilst condemning the latter?
Or none of the above?
Your ignorance and rudeness is truly breath taking. Still it’s nice to see that inmates are allowed internet access whilst detained in a secure facility.
May I suggest you use this time to study history.
Post Soviet Russia liberalised laws against homosexuality.
They just don’t want kids subject to indoctrination on the subject.
The homophobic, transphobic and sexist laws are largely the result of the octopus like tentacles of the Russian Orthodox Church trying to tighten its grip across Russia. The Christians have far too much influence in Russia and always have – politically, economically, culturally and socially. Even Stalin was afraid of the vampire like grip they have over the Russian people.
Perhaps that’s why he murdered millions of them Becky.
You seem to have strong feelings on the subject perhaps you would like to see similar measures instituted today?
It’s not an holocaust when the victims are Christian peasants is it?
Perhaps the Russians, intolerant bastards that they are, decided against the dubious benefits of “Fred the Weather man” extolling the virtues of mutual masturbation with adults to children ?
If the Putin regime is concerned about child abuse, as most paedophiles are heterosexual, Sabre, why didn’t they enact discriminatory laws against them instead? Would have been more logical to watch out for straight males like Jimmy Savile, Rolf Harris and Gary Glitter etc., would it not?
Jimmy, Rolf and Gary straight?
Those unfortunate enough to be cock eyed will inevitably see straight lines where the rest of us observe chicanes. It appears that your perception of human sexual response is as cockeyed as your numerological foreign policy analyses.
@ Becky, ‘….as most paedophiles are heterosexual,…’
That’s wildly incorrect. I suggest you carry out more research.
Ps. Betcha Gojam publishes none of this, because as others have pointed out his whole child abuse schtick is just a figleaf to hide his neo-Nazi views – just like his mates Spivey, Dogturd and Herr Wolfie et al on a certain other side. Goodbye.
Wrong again Becky,
It would appear that your talent for betting is on a par with your numerology based foreign policy analysis. :-)
Oh dear, well as long as you’re happy living in the matrix, that’s fine I guess. They do say ignorance is bliss………….
Becky 0/10 epic fail see me.
it seems there is a lot more to the ugly situation than just pipelines and ports and putins
The U.S State department seems to be clearing obstacles to agribusiness.
… The U.S.-Ukraine Business Council’s 16-member Executive Committee is packed with U.S. agribusiness companies, including representatives from Monsanto, John Deere, DuPont Pioneer, Eli Lilly, and Cargill.  The Council’s twenty “senior Advisors” include James Greene (Former Head of NATO Liason Office Ukraine); Ariel Cohen (Senior Research Fellow for The Heritage Foundation); Leonid Kozachenko (President of the Ukrainian Agrarian Confederation); six former U.S. Ambassadors to Ukraine, and the former ambassador of Ukraine to the U.S., Oleh Shamshur.
Hill & Knowlton are on the ground managing the propaganda.
… Hill + Knowlton, with its Kuwait “incubator babies atrocities” falsehood, was instrumental in getting the American public to back the first Gulf War on Iraq in the early 1990s. Now the company is involved in fomenting a Cold War 2 or worse, and on behalf of Monsanto – recently voted the “most evil” corporation on the planet. That’s something to recall in the midst of the extensive mainstream media demonizing of Putin….
… Meanwhile, Russia’s Prime Minister Dmitry Medvedev stated in April: “We don’t have a goal of developing GM products here or to import them. We can feed ourselves with normal, common, not genetically modified products. If the Americans like to eat such products, let them eat them. We don’t need to do that; we have enough space and opportunities to produce organic food…
Can’t they just sew Monsanto logos next to the neo-nazi insignias on the uniforms of the ‘military advisers’; thereby cutting out the middleman (and woman) altogether? It would save money spent on propaganda -I mean ‘public relations’.
The military advisers are probably in civvies or borrowing Ukrainian army kit. I think that you are getting distracted by the insignificant “neo Nazi” pawns, they won’t prosper the man from US embassy he say “no”.
painting this as a nazi vs soviets is rather like showing a few photos of the gurkhas and suggesting that the himalayans run nato.
the profits from vast areas of farmland,ports,pipes and perhaps a small slice of tsar putin’s reputation at home are the prizes and as usual the peasants provide the troops and the civilian folk in danger with the modern advantage that in a post oppenheimer world the peasantry in danger is the global peasantry .
Indeed, It would appear that it isn’t only first world war generals that insist on fighting the last war !
there is chatter in the msm and elsewhere that putin :
A ,might have been deposed
B,might be on paternity leave
C,might have been assimilated by ukip
my money would not be on him defecting to ukip
apparently he is “back in the room” which i spose still leaves the first two options as possible.
crimea is now officially russia again but where that leaves ukraine is undecided.
messy and dangerous imho.
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