Christopher Fay, 64, of Blackheath, south-east London, pleaded guilty to one count of entering into an arrangement – money laundering – and was jailed for a year.- 2 February 2011
This story is true and is referring to Chris Fay, pictured, who is a former advisor to NAYPIC.
I was first made aware of this about a month ago. At the time I miscalculated Chris’ age and thought it referred to another person. However a week or so later I realised my mistake.
I’ve talked to Chris about this and he said, “I was bloody stupid.”
I asked him directly if he was aware of the wider fraud that the “money-laundering” conviction was connected to, and Chris has assured me that he was completely unaware of the fraud which is the main subject of the BBC article above.
I’m not going to comment further on this. To my mind this is a bit of a distraction from the child abuse issue and in no way takes away anything from the fact that over 20 years ago Chris Fay was volunteering his time to supporting young people in care and uncovering child abuse.
Now, there will be some people who are reading this that I want to send a very clear message to.
I know exactly where this information emanated from several month’s ago ! I don’t want YOU to think I’m a fool, it’s noted and I do not consider it friendly.
But enough of the organ grinder, I do want to spare a few lines for the monkey. I do want to point out that the organ grinder, in this case, isn’t who the monkey has been blaming recently.
The monkey chose to include this disingenuous line which accompanied the link above
“Always worth checking things thoroughly as I am guessing the media are going to try and discredit both Fay and the ‘list’…”
It’s rather funny how the monkey tries to blame the ‘media’ for trying to discredit Chris Fay at this time, while himself supplying links to news articles from almost 3 years ago.
Is anyone fooled ?
How to catch a monkey:- Innate greed and ignorance are the key.
theneedleblog 
One thing people should look at is the broad of who accuses Conservatives, who accuses Liberals/Libdems and who accuses the Labour Party.
The GLC was broadly Labour, Chris Faye was a Labour Councillor and his major focus appeared to be mostly Conservative shenanigans in SW London. At that time, Conservatives were in power. After being in retirement for several years, he was then contacted by Labour MP Tom Watson when again the Conservatives were in power and Labour were in opposition.
Muck about the Labour Party emerges in Lambeth as soon as the Blair Government is in power, despite the abuse dating back to the 1970s and 1980s. How coincidental was that?
When the Right decided that smashing the Libdems to bits should start in the media in 2010 (organised by the DT editor and five psychopaths who never practice what they preach – disgustingly fat Conservative journalists should be emotionally tortured after what their party says about fatties (they never are, just as paedophile vips are never prosecuted)), the truth about Cyril Smith came out and you now have mentally ill trolls writing at Fawkes’ site of filth that Libdems should be called ‘the party of paedophiles’, when documented convictions show far more Labour and Conservative politicians to be of that ilk.
It is fairly obvious that MI5, MI6 and foreign security service mafias are blackmailing politicians for their own fascist ends. Heath, Wilson, Thatcher, Blair, Brown, Johnson etc were obviously tsrgeted. They are the ones who callously sacrifice children as political pawns.They should be dealt with with utter brutality, starting with petrol bombing their white vans when they spy on whistleblowers. It should not be dealt with in court…..
This does not say what Chris Faye says is false, it says he was going after the other tribe……
If you want truth, it will not come from the major political tribes…..or if it does, it will come from independent back benchers. I deliberately challenged John Mann and Simon Danczuk to investigate Lambeth, precisely because the accusations concern Labour Ministers……
It will not come from the Daily Mail or the Daily Telegraph either, both of which are owned by tax-avoiding billionaires.
If Geoffrey Dickens was fingering his own party, more power to his elbow…..
My advice: build a website with all the stories, claims, accusations and convictions on them. There is a series of stories from London: Dolphin Square; Elm Guest House; Islington; Lambeth. There is a series of stories about Wales: care homes in N Wales; the story of Bridgend. There is the Savile/Jaconelli axis in Scarborough/Whitby. There is the Rochdale nonsense. There is QVS in Dunblane. There is Kincora Boys Home. There is Haut de la Garenne on Jersey and its links to Sussex, Islington and Cambridgeshire. There is Plymouth. There is the Muslim taxi scandal in Yorkshire. There is the Leicestershire story. There are the stories of churchmen. There are music schools. Now scandals in sport are emerging.
It surprises me that Birmingham is uniquely free of paedophilia, along with Liverpool and Glasgow……
If there is to be value, the documentation must be measured, cautious and clear where further evidence is concerned.
Pingback: BoydenReport Exposes SPIRITUAL Wickedness in High Places, the Pedofile-Sodomite Cover-up! | Looking Back Woman-Suzanne Dupree blog
I have done searches under the name Chris Fay and have found many people with the same name including a reporter.
I would seem that people jump to the wrong conclusions all because they see the name Chris Fay.
I should imagine that there has been a lot of muck spreading from the notorious OUTLAW JIMMY JONES about Chris Fay.
I had quite a long conversation with Chris Fay about this to which he states that he had nothing to do with the scam and I accept that as truth.
However Chris has done a lot of work for victims of abuse while at naypic and is still helping victims now.
Weather or not the story is true does not matter besides we have all done things in our past that we are not proud of.
It would seem that there are people who have set out on a crusade to destroy Chris Fay.
May I remind people that Jimmy Jones has attacked GOJAM and Chris Fay for the work that they have done to which Jimmy Jones has attacked many others in the past including me.
I suggest if people are going to make allegations then please check and double check your information first before publishing articles as false articles can damage a persons reputation and also life
“I’m very sorry you lost money to a conman”
I didn’t. You misread the post and missed the point.
Talking of con man I see the troll gang hacked David hencke email then sent out begging letters for money from his address…pathetic and lame …
Nice distraction but again, tediously obvious. Is it your conclusion that Boys from Richmond care homes were buggered at Elms for fun and profit by powerful and protected people or where they not? That is the salient point and you seem determined to avoid expressing a view on it, preferring instead to concentrate on yourself and your own personal woes. Funny that, given that child trafficking at Elms is the very point you are trying to discredit. Did it happen or didn’t it? I am curious to know what you really think of the actual issue.
Meaning what Green? If you have a point I’ve love to know it. Perhaps you are point-less? It can happen. Are you trying to suggest nothing happened at Elms? No raid took place, no boys from Richmond care homes used, Chris Fay making the entire story up? You do rather seem to be making mountains out of molehills in order to ignore the bigger picture. Perhaps you should have gone to Specsavers.
We seem to be back to heresy again. I am simply exercising a right to look at freely available information, including about the main sources of these allegations. People who are accusing others of coverups and who endorse freedom of thought and freedom of information shouldn’t have a problem with that.
If you think this is an attempt to cause trouble by being a stickler for ‘unnecessary’ details, it was by examining the details that I avoided losing a lot of money a few years ago to a self-described financial adviser working for a large financial consultancy that, through a clever boiler-room style operation that employs unqualified individuals to spin convincing-sounding financial recommendations (i.e. operate as financial con artists), has separated many people in different countries from large chunks of their savings. For the con to work, the victims just have to take things at face value, and believe that their financial advisers are what they appear to be (don’t check their background), that the company does what it claims to do (don’t check sources other than the company’s own publicity) and that the advice is genuine (don’t check the recommendations). No, I am not accusing anyone here of misrepresenting the facts, just pointing out that it can sometimes pay to be pedantic and not swallow down a tasty-sounding story that you really want to believe without keeping common sense switched on and checking what’s in the spoon and who’s holding it. If the story is genuine, it will withstand independent examination/cross-checking with other sources.
I’m very sorry you lost money to a conman however your personal financial woes are utterly irrelevant to the subject at hand. I find it strange that you might think a blip in your monetary equation might in any way be cogent to the discussion. You talk about yourself a lot, an obvious but tediously ineffective way of avoiding the issue.
Were boys from Richmond care homes being buggered for fun and profit at Elms Guest House or where they not? You are singularly unwilling to address that point which is, regardless of your reduced bank balance, the only point here.
Distrust disnfo we can’t trust ourselves or info we find ..just proves the disrupter plan is working then.
Scrape scrape scrape can you hear that sound ? Its the tedious sound of desperate barrel scraping… Give up you have already lost…
capital gay magazine offices were firebombed..capital gay were carrying the spartacus advert and portrayed the kaisirs in innocent victims l..wonder why that was with pressland writing for capital gay who contributed to middleton/parrot PIE betrayal of youth and thornton also on MM list who wrote for capital gay as well..
bob, you seem to have the same habit of putting .. and … between phrases/sentences as whoever wrote Mary’s very long comment quoted above (http://legalaidcuts.blogspot.co.uk/2013/01/someone-who-seems-to-have-real-interest.html). Perhaps this is just a coincidence. ;)
Green never take me for a fool others have tried and failed ..if I have to have that bloody stupid legal aid blogspot dragged up over and over again I swear I will scream
Look kiddies you’ve had your twisted fun now bugget off and let the grown ups carry on…message ends.
As evidenced here it’s obvious that MM photographed the Elm GH documents at the art gallery.
Absolutely nothing fake about any of it at all. This is getting beyond ridiculous. However don’t let the truth get in the way of a good conspiracy Bob.
Kd how about this for an idea…you and your tedious cronies nd the bat eared pipsqueek you follow like hypnotized drones
We meet up and discuss this
Or
You can just fuck off
I recommend the latter as it saves on bus fare..
Hi Bob, KD is a friend as you are.
I don’t like to see friends fighting unnecessarily.
Gojam sorry but there’s a limit ppl can take and when one goes into surreal land making daft claims …that are idiotic it gets too much look we are being played by uno who and its so obvious and I know wtf is going on here
They’ve got some factory churning this site out all that editing and copy and pasting from old docs its really lame..
OK I might be back later but I won’t stand for the wrecking crews cods walliop
Ppl have suffered enough what about the poor sods who took their own lives because of the disnfo brigade and investigations shut down as result anyone thinking about them ?
the Flores lnkedin photo link is bogus as hell it connects to bog standard link site…who is playing this game?
Ah yes the usual suspects at troll central
Do you know how bored I am with this nonsense that has been put about by the troll gang ? Why do you persist with this loaf of fake tosh? Either you are gullible or part of it..time hopefully will tell soon..
Can we bloody get on please ?
@KD utter bollocks either someone is having a game here or you have mixed up that stuff..maybe there are two naypic organisations..thats not MM ..reason is obvious its called AGE !! ppl in those photos are much younger…duh !! btw my mail has been hacked and certain ppl are playing silly buggers with some of us…and all arounf same time thes bill malony / chris fay thing..aint that odd..someone aint happy and intent to wreck things…’sowing seeds of doubt’ muddying the waters its called..oh do FO,,
If you don’t want to believe that it is MM then more fool you.
As for sowing seeds of doubt who was it exactly who was insisting she was DEAD only a week ago? Oh yeah, it was YOU.
Anyway do carry on. I can’t wait for the next instalment Bob.
Or Gojam could always step in and clarify since ludicrous accusations are being thrown about.
@kd as it happens someone else thought she was dead too….not only that there has been malevalance of late with fake photos and fake naypic sites..so kd are you happy now or do you want to keep kicking me…and make yrself look silly in the process.
Plenty of evidence she uses multiple names, including from her own Youth Parliament website, which even includes her family tree:
“Mary Moss (AKA Jo Gavin & Jo Flores)”
http://legalaidcuts.blogspot.com/2012/12/dec-newsflash.html
“MS JO FLORES (NEE: GAVIN)”
Click to access 5.%20Final%20Doc-Permission%20to%20Appeal.pdf
“With Kind Regards
Ms Mary J Valdivieso Fortuno Flores”
Click to access 6.%20Letter%20to%20the%20Ombusman%20Oct%202011.pdf
“Jo Flores, formerly Jo Gavin, also known as Mary Flores, or to give her name in full Mary Josofar Valdivieso Fortuno Flores is the First Appellant”
http://legalaidcuts.blogspot.com/2013/02/is-having-no-air-in-premises-illegal-do.html
From family tree tracing herself back to Edward I:
“I was born Mary Moss in Chelsea the daughter of Mary Gavin whose mother was Dorothy Noel Morgan, who’s mother was Elena Fortuño Malo, whose mother was María de la Luz Malo Valdivielso whose mother was Concepción Villar-‐Villamil Valdivielso.”
Click to access 8.%20Family%20Tree.pdf
Also linked here: http://www.youthparliament.co.uk/
Linkedin profiles + Youtube videos:
http://uk.linkedin.com/pub/mary-josofar-valdivieso-fortuno-flores/33/8a3/771
http://uk.linkedin.com/pub/mary-j-valdivieso-fortuno-flores/5b/a8/787
https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCNNOJynU94xD5e81axSP67Q/videos
Company directorship entry for her mentioning coworkers called Moss:
http://www.ccdni.com/director-mary-josofar-valdivieso-fortuno-flores
Part of very long comment:
“Someone said on a blog perhaps the art galleries were just a cover for NAYPIC.. well that is now out of the bag drrr.. of course they were. They were the seedling creations of an independent Youth Economy to fund an independent youth parliament… as stated on my websites http://www.youthparliament.co.uk, youthparliament.org.uk and http://www.yourdealingwithmenow.com In 1992 we were viciously closed down because we were investigating the case of Carol Cazier. I set up the first gallery in 2000 and the next in 2004. Because they were healing enterprises and not negative like all this stuff but also they were mine http://www.scarletmaguire.com and not funded by Government and my plan was that by setting up http://www.spaceshift.co.uk the second one, we could create a franchise for all young people to be involved and they could join my course ‘the founders 007′.. ”
http://edgeofreason.myfreeforum.org/sutra7069.php
http://legalaidcuts.blogspot.co.uk/2013/01/someone-who-seems-to-have-real-interest.html
Boy all that stuff to prove what ? That its all made up bollockd that’s what
How about Gojam or whoever else does this blog requesting access to the records of the coroner’s inquest into Carole Kasir’s death and reporting back on their success and/or the content of anything they receive?
http://www.nationalarchives.gov.uk/records/looking-for-person/coroners-inquests.htm
Gojam I have sent you mail on something related to all this sorry but we are being played like idiots at the moment and I can see the game here big time what’s pissing me off is that ppl are falling for it and not noticing the bloody obvious that I can see its like ppl are asleep or something so please check mail to you thanks
Hi, I can confirm that Fernbridge seized the records of Carols Inquest. What was in them I don’t know. From research it seems there is no legal requirement for coroners to make full transcipts of Inquest, many seem to be just a written verdict plus the coroners handwritten notes (if your lucky!)
As Carols death is not a subject of Fernbridges breif, the only reason I can see for this is to prevent FOI requests,
I think the “Monkey” has had a sex change and changed his name to Sarah.
they can run but they …you know the rest..
cant believe this stuff is avalable on the net…
http://www.goodreads.com/author/show/588038.Theo_Sandfort
http://www.chrisspivey.co.uk/ovenden-a-danger-to-children-then-a-danger-to-children-now/
just reposting this from a previous spivey blog…pity i hadnt noticed at the time the L A Stanley connection ( a convicted paedo)
and theo sandfort one of the many ”experts’ who are cited by paedo blogs..(he contributed to PAN / spartacus as well..)
btw still shocked to see coltsfoot books are still available at amazon.com
are they ‘blissfully unaware’ at amazon??
Pingback: Chris Fay | justiceforkevinandjenveybaylis
Sunday Express running with Chris Fay testimony on treatment by Special Branch. Hope others pick it up.
@gw well i have to thank you mate….and yes bishop murun and the other guys on here who help out…its an ongoing task i can tell you but from my point of view..no one is going to make me give up getting the justice for those poor souls have had to endure for years,,to those out there who want to derail this..ok give it your best shot..it wont work we are not going away..
Wow now everyone is falling out again. nothing is shut down. Those looking as a profession have access to info jo public dont. Whatever anyone posts the facts will be kept until the end. There are a handful of detectives looking. Meanwhile taken out of local offices (who also are underfunded) and away from kids who need help now too. Maybe there are good reasons for silence. Its spanning 30+ years of info in all kinds of places. Can everyone please just not fight one another. It helps no-one in the end. On a positive note the CPS have listened and is positive yet in the middle of all this its been utterly lost.
Chris is reported to have entered a ‘guilty’ plea for money-laundering. He appears to have ‘done his time’ with a custodial sentence far greater than some of the convicted paedophiles.
Some of the CSA victims have gone on to commit crimes also, but we forgive them because of their apparent naivety.
What is good for the goose is good for the gander!
I don’t think it was possible to draw a definite line under the matter as Gojam asked us to. The monkeys and organ grinders are disaffecting in real life. They are ‘spinning heads’ in the Wrexham area to the point where nobody knows who to believe and in whom they can trust! How does that help the CSA victims/survivors who have come forward to Operation Pallial?
If the organ grinders and the monkeys can’t be supportive and helpful to other CSA victims/survivors, they should stop their on-line battle now. Of course we want the truth – but I have absolutely no reason to doubt the witness testimony that I have been given.
Witness testimony ?
‘muddying the waters’ is part of the subterfuge plan..
Yes Gojam – witness testimony. I am not just a ‘cyber warrior’ – I have driven many miles to enable witnesses to tell their story to the appropriate authority (police in this instance).
Here is what the Monkey wrote on Spivey’s blog in September…He’s talking about Elm Guest House…
‘Plans are already in place to discredit the real events that took place there also, maybe by revealing the criminal past of one of the main whistleblowers…. Or something along these lines. Who knows eh?’
‘monkey’ alluded to this a few weeks ago on Chris Spivey’s blog, not long after a certain nasty blog had appeared which slagged off pretty much anyone who is trying to fight the good fight. Pathetic.
@Em this just shows how bloody desparate the paedo mates gang really is….
btw we are NOT a bunch of religious zealots on here…as someone tries to depict us..far from it…nice try pal but it wont work,,,
It would seem that Mary Moss herself (if it is indeed her) is now questioning Chris Fay’s account. Her comment on the video states:
“We were told to get rid of you Chris.. you seem to enjoy this story.. so why now are you saying Carol in the know.. you sound like disgruntled social worker from Greenwich who was going make them all pay even we had to pay I don’t trust you a single bit and remember some strange shit about you and how you used us all in this process.. stop saying ‘we’.. you were not NAYPIC never. Mary Moss last elected Chair of NAYPIC by 365 young people from care..”
And the “monkey”‘s latest tweet?
“Quickly burn off 2+ inches of stomach fat while losing up to 30 lbs of fat in less than 28 days with http://x.co/2cXIk “
Don’t you mean ‘someone purporting to be Mary Moss’?
Mary has my email address and I’ll always listen to what she has to say to me but I’d rather hear it from her directly rather than a quasi-anonymous comment on a youtube video.
As for monkey…
Gojam, I did say “if it is indeed her”. The comment does seem to come from her YouTube account, but that of course isn’t proof of her authorship of the comment itself. The account could have been hacked, for example.
Anyway, it has already disappeared.
btw i have that jo flores is NOT mary..
@bobchewie
confirmation MM uses/used the name of Jo Flores is on her OWN website
http://legalaidcuts.blogspot.co.uk/2012/12/dec-newsflash.html
@bobchewie
and again, MM (mary-josofar-valdivieso-fortuno-flores) on linkedin
http://uk.linkedin.com/pub/mary-josofar-valdivieso-fortuno-flores/33/8a3/771
funny that all these things about Chris suddenly come up at same time when we are told that police are close to arresting VIP paedo..coincidence?
This investigation is NOT being closed down.
next it will be chris fay is a died int the wool communist paid by the KGB..
@all i guess stuff like this will happen which is sad….however as you point out Chris tireless effort into bringing justice for all the victims..and lets not forget he has come under attack from the VIP clan (PB) and suchlike…
and i have to say that Chris help in my investigations have been very helpful indeed..
“@green and your point is what exactly?? .”
If it wasn’t a charity, don’t call it one. Otherwise people will think it was collecting donations and wonder why it wasn’t registered.
“i am sure you want to tell us”
Child abuse allegations aren’t a religion that demands blind faith and with a superior all-knowing clerical elite. People are permitted to ask questions without being patronised or suspected of being heretics.
Probably a bit like the Find Madeleine fund is referred to as a ‘charity’ in the MSM. That is a Ltd Company run by the parents and their friends!
Government funding streams can be hard to categorise at times. I don’t think there has been an intention to give mis-information.
NAYPIC – National Association of Young People In Care (UK) – was a charitable organisation whilst not registered as a charity with the Charity Commission. There are lots of charitable organisations around today. Nothing unusual in that.
Green i agree with you that some can be quick to accuse. Id be suprised if “disinfo” agents are employed as bloggers and twitter seems to take care of that!
however i think you are a bit hungup on the charity thing. Naypics history is relativly well documented. As part of my day job i research a fair amount of third party groups and not all are as transparent.
To noone in particular;
I think its important that we stick to the facts. Lets not take things as gospel. The police operations are still ongoing and are conducted in secrecy – there is lots of room for confusion! There is of course, room for scepti that should apply to all accounts not just the official one!
so much good work has been done by people here, gojam, bishop bob muran etc. Im confident it can be kept up! Group hug!?
Regards
oh come on…..thats the best you can come out with….and me reading about the ‘CSA industry’ as if it were an organised ‘bandwagon’
let me tell you this ..this IS NOT a fkin ‘religion’ its a dedication that DOES come with constant checking ( yes i do that) and no its not a ‘blind faith’ as you put it…
on that note all i am doing is ask what YOUR angle on this is?
can you answer that.?
Pity,I really hoped it was another Chris.
No doubt the monkey will be making the
most of it and sadly this plays into his hands.
You’re right, I can’t read. A convicted money launderer.
Would be interesting to know where that film was made.
Naypic was never a registered charity. It was a community organisation that was grant-funded from the Greater London Council, and its residual body the London Boroughs Regional Grants Committee when the GLC ceased to be. Full annual accounts were submittted annually until 1993 when it was shut down. The only paid employee was Mary Moss.
It’s referred to as a charity on your site and in The Independent:
“The Log … was written by Chris Fay, … an adviser to NAYPIC. It was a record of the day-to-day work undertaken by the charity”
https://theneedleblog.wordpress.com/2013/05/16/from-the-naypic-log/
“Chris Fay, a social worker who worked for a small charity, the National Association for Young People in Care (Naypic) …”
http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/crime/special-report-police-revisit-the-grim-mystery-of-elm-guest-house-8420435.html
Charity, noun (OED)
1a. Giving voluntarily to those in need.
b. An institution or organisation for helping those in need.
2. Kindness, benevolence.
@green and your point is what exactly?? i am sure you want to tell us.
“Chris has assured me that he was completely unaware of the fraud”
A convicted fraudster who wasn’t aware of the fraud?
“over 20 years ago Chris Fay was volunteering his time to supporting young people in care and uncovering child abuse”
How about some corroborating evidence independent of Chris Fay, also for Naypic and its activities. It’s not listed on the Charity Commission’s list of current and registered charities that goes back to 1961.
Correction: …current and removed charities…
He’s not a convicted fraudster. You either a) can’t read or b) are deliberately being misleading.
I’m opting for b) right now.
Shame, I really wanted to name the Monkey ;) Respect to you all at Needleblog for not doing that and censoring my post, despite all the abuse you have taken from him!
Regards
Agreed. Anyone with half a brain can see who the good guys are here.
@Em they can try….but it wont work..
Only people with half a brain more like. Quite frankly some of you are myopic and only see half the story.
Thank you for putting us straight on this, it is clear that this ‘Monkey’ has also been playing us on the David Icke site too and trying to cause trouble. He has recently come on to apologise for his past behaviour and then taken the opportunity to try and glean as many email addresses as possible from genuine people who are trying to help. For what purpose, one can only guess.
Those on the Icke site appreciate all that you are doing here and regardless of what Chris may or may not have done in the past, he is now admired for stepping forward to try and help those abused, which is more than Monkey has done.
Monkey needs to stay clear of us now, we will not be fooled by him again!
@team anders so whats his angle on trying to obtain email addresses from contributors? muck raking?
Muck raking is definitely his angle. I have the feeling that Monkey has another little something up his sleeve that he is saving for an opportune moment. Team Anders are on their guard.
someone would of found it sooner or later.
all credit to your honesty i mean you could of lied and said it was a different Chris Faye.
So what! We all knew it was going to get nasty and I am sure that this is an opening public shot against the whistleblowers etc. I have yet to be publically attacked but I am sure that will come. In the meantime I have been privately warned – thanks, forwarned is forarmed. The problem the servants of darkness have is that people like me and Chris, David, Mark, Tom, Gojam and so on and so on is that we have a much bigger sticks to hit with. So as Caine said in Zulu ‘come on, COME ON then’.
We are ALL waiting. Nothing like a good ruck to clear the air.
As for Chris, Keep going mate and concentrate on the real crime – the Institutional Cover up of Child Abuse in the UK for Decades. Lets hope the BBC can run that as well.
@GMB yes i can speak from experience about being attacked online by a concerted effort which, to me seemed organised…
it would all depend on the circumstances i suppose i would have to know more about the case before i made a judgement.
just because someone has committed a crime does not mean they are lying about everything.
Pingback: Chris Fay | Alternative News Network